trickle down

[floater]

For the legion AC fans that boycott the FP - I say boycott no more - for Clean has seen the light.

Clean: "I can honestly say that this boat has the potential to change multihull racing forever all of a sudden, non-foilers just seem kind of silly."

It took a while, but we finally have video of Clean riding AC34 TNZ technology on a fully foiling catamaran!

More here:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=140701

 

[floater]

Even better, the illustrious SimonN is leading the charge to bring TNZ boards to the masses:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=155674&page=2#entry4536488

 

[floater]

And, as they say, there is still more. Not just one, not just two, but three manufacturers are building production racing cats - all sporting AC34 technology (I like to say say TNZ technology, because they brought it to the world first):

Nacra: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=156068#entry4533677

Phantom:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=153137&page=4#entry4531886

 

[floater]

It would seem there is something of a gold-rush on in terms of cashing in on AC34 technology. The latest entry has noticeably skinny boards that are probably tricky to fly - as evidenced by the quick edits in the video. Recall the first six months of Oracle video!

SL33:

http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/04/22/get-on-up/

 

[Chris 249]

Do you think that the introduction of foiling into cats will cause the same sort of growth as in the mono classes that went to foiling or foil assistance?

 

[floater]

I am probably not the most qualified to respond - but foiling monos - anything other than a moth?

So if you simply want to count mothies - plus all the new sailors attracted to the flame - you might compare that to the existing A Class fleet (and perhaps divide by two - only keep those willing to repeal Rule 8)!

But the potential of a foiling multi seems so much greater than the mono - namely crew. Plus, the attractive simplicity of the self correcting TNZ foil. I pity the hapless builder of the foiling beachcat who went with wands - time to accept the NIH design and provide some self correcting foils!

 

[PeterHuston]

Well...if anyone really wanted to get serious about foiling, they would look in the direction of totally automated foiling.

But first, you'd have to know where to look.

And Clean doesn't have a fucking clue about that.

 

[Chris 249]

Out of interest, I looked into the numbers doing national titles in four major English speaking sailing nations (USA, Australia, UK, NZ). The number of total entries in existing mono classes that use foils (N12, R, 14*) have dropped by about 1/3. Of the three full-foiling mono classes that have existed one is showing strong growth in one country (and significant growth in many other countries), one has died (RS600ff), and the other (the Kiwi R Class) has had its fleet halved since the first foils arrived (although external issues are a factor).

The full-foiling classes seem to have grown by 45 boats in about a decade, across four countries. That's not huge considering the publicity, the brilliance of some of the Moths, and the fact that Bladerider allegedly lost a couple of mill in what could well have been the biggest and best promotion campaign of a high-end racing dinghy ever done.

In that time, in at least one country there has been a rise in the overall national title attendance (non-foilers and non foilers alike) by about 17% in the UK with a major increase in the number of plastic boats, but I haven't got that figure for the other countries. If other countries echo the UK then the rise in full foilers across all classes is only about 15 boats more than the growth one would expect in those classes even if they had not gone to foiling.

These are not complete figures, but they do seem to indicate pretty clearly that a "trickle down** " of foiling is not necessarily a boon for a class. The full foilers are still only about 1% of boats doing nationals in the country that has the biggest national fleets.

Fun to sail? Yep. Something that will come to the masses and change the wide fact of sailing participation forever? Hmmmm....

* UK Cherub not included as I'm not sure of foil use but since their numbers are fairly small it doesn't change the overall issue much)

** I say "trickle down" in quotes because of course most of the things the AC highlighted, like foils, wings and cats, actually started in small boats, so it's really a "trickle up and then back down".

 

[Tony-F18]

Currently IMHO, the biggest obstacle for mass adoption of foiling boats is cost.

The foiling Phantom cat for example is around 35k,that's a lot of dosh for a 2 person cat with no one to compete against (not counting handicap).

 

[dogwatch]

^

Adding foils to International Moths raised the cost 50-100% and also restricts practical venues to ones where it is possible to launch directly into deep water. Clearly, in the case of Moths, foiling has rescued what was a dying class and there have been enough people with the combination of money, fitness and sailing talent to support that development. A big plus for the Moths is that they can be cheaply shipped to international regattas - something that won't be true of multi-hulls.

Whether there is demand (and the necessary cash) from recreational sailors for foiling multihulls remains to be seen.Much debate is going on in the A-class - including the launching issue.

 

[dogwatch]

** I say "trickle down" in quotes because of course most of the things the AC highlighted, like foils, wings and cats, actually started in small boats, so it's really a "trickle up and then back down".

Absolutely.

 

[Xlot]

For the legion AC fans that boycott the FP - I say boycott no more - for Clean has seen the light.

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned Clean is permanently blacklisted - due to an exceedingly loutish (even by his standards) comment he made sometime ago. Trouble is, I don't remember what it was about any more, although I did copy it somewhere ..

Edit: found it

Google tells us that there are 3.99 million people reading this site that aren't you ... or the couple hundred other whiny, shiteating, useless, sniping cocks that make the SA forums such a douchebaggish place..... Why do YOU think YOU count for anything besides somewhere for me to flick my ash?

(Clean, 12/19/2013)

 

[GauchoGreg]

For the legion AC fans that boycott the FP - I say boycott no more - for Clean has seen the light.

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned Clean is permanently blacklisted - due to an exceedingly loutish (even by his standards) comment he made sometime ago. Trouble is, I don't remember what it was about any more, although I did copy it somewhere ..

Edit: found it

>Google tells us that there are 3.99 million people reading this site that aren't you ... or the couple hundred other whiny, shiteating, useless, sniping cocks that make the SA forums such a douchebaggish place..... Why do YOU think YOU count for anything besides somewhere for me to flick my ash?

(Clean, 12/19/2013)

I had not seen that. Yikes. I nice way to treat his customers.

 

[GauchoGreg]

Out of interest, I looked into the numbers doing national titles in four major English speaking sailing nations (USA, Australia, UK, NZ). The number of total entries in existing mono classes that use foils (N12, R, 14*) have dropped by about 1/3. Of the three full-foiling mono classes that have existed one is showing strong growth in one country (and significant growth in many other countries), one has died (RS600ff), and the other (the Kiwi R Class) has had its fleet halved since the first foils arrived (although external issues are a factor).

The full-foiling classes seem to have grown by 45 boats in about a decade, across four countries. That's not huge considering the publicity, the brilliance of some of the Moths, and the fact that Bladerider allegedly lost a couple of mill in what could well have been the biggest and best promotion campaign of a high-end racing dinghy ever done.

In that time, in at least one country there has been a rise in the overall national title attendance (non-foilers and non foilers alike) by about 17% in the UK with a major increase in the number of plastic boats, but I haven't got that figure for the other countries. If other countries echo the UK then the rise in full foilers across all classes is only about 15 boats more than the growth one would expect in those classes even if they had not gone to foiling.

These are not complete figures, but they do seem to indicate pretty clearly that a "trickle down** " of foiling is not necessarily a boon for a class. The full foilers are still only about 1% of boats doing nationals in the country that has the biggest national fleets.

Fun to sail? Yep. Something that will come to the masses and change the wide fact of sailing participation forever? Hmmmm....

* UK Cherub not included as I'm not sure of foil use but since their numbers are fairly small it doesn't change the overall issue much)

** I say "trickle down" in quotes because of course most of the things the AC highlighted, like foils, wings and cats, actually started in small boats, so it's really a "trickle up and then back down".

Wow, talk about a hell of a lot of effort that means nothing.

Trickle down from AC34 would be starting since the AC boats were developed, and would only be relevant with respect to multi-hulls since mono-hulls do not lend themselves to the same technology. Rather than putting so much effort into analysis of historic development, prior to AC34, of boats that are not relevant, it might be better to just watch and see how interest in foiling, paired with ongoing development employing new concepts developed in AC34 (and the self-regulating foils really did not have any significant life before AC34) ends up translating to more foiling for the consumer sailing world (from dinghy to yacht).

I find it interesting that many want to poo-poo the very idea that foiling could take off rather than being interested in how the potential of something that so dramatically improves performance can translate to the consumer sailing world. But since most of the sailing world wants their boats to go faster, no matter what kind of boat (I have never heard anyone say they want their boat to be slower), it seems like it would be reasonable to hope for new advancements to somehow translate to as much of the sailing world as possible. And if it does not relate to the kind of boat you are interested in, why be invested in poo-pooing its potential in the rest of the sailing world?

 

[BHowett]

* UK Cherub not included as I'm not sure of foil use but since their numbers are fairly small it doesn't change the overall issue much)

All UK Cherubs built in the last ~10 years use horizontal lifting rudder foils, and quite a few older boats have been converted.

Numbers are fairly small at around 20 boats at a typical nationals but there is an upward trend in these numbers since the adoption of the rudder foils. It would be tough to argue whether or not these things are linked but theres no doubt that the foils have transformed the way the boats sail.

 

[dogwatch]

I find it interesting that many want to poo-poo the very idea that foiling could take off rather than being interested in how the potential of something that so dramatically improves performance can translate to the consumer sailing world.

I'm not sure "many" is correct, although "many" may be irritated by one of foiling's true believer's incessant posts.

FWIW I think foiling is very much part of the future of high performance sailing. Wingsails.....not so much.

 

[~Stingray~~]

FWIW I think foiling is very much part of the future of high performance sailing. Wingsails.....not so much.

On wingsails, and trickle-down at least to hi-po sailing, I like the idea that this by Gino M could be a really good development once some AC sized resources have been brought to bear:

by KL at http://www.blueplanettimes.com/the-new-americas-cup-cat/ , bold mine

--

How can you design the boat if you don’t know the venue? Or if, as Larry Ellison once suggested, there could be more than one venue? Good question. Here we go—

Gino again: “One thing that was possible under the AC72 rule, but now is mandated, is a wing design that can be over-rotated to a negative angle of attack. You would do this at the top of the wing, so that instead of pushing the boat over, it’s actually pulling the boat up. Theoretically, if you’re bearing away around the weather mark in 30 knots, you can crank the wing inside out to get positive righting moment. You get a safer turn. The downside is that you’re inducing drag, which slows you down, so you’re going to have to learn how to actually do this. But it’s one way to build a big rig that will perform in San Diego but survive San Francisco.

“There are provisions in the new class rule to allow different wing sizes and jib sizes, but the ability to over-rotate the wing gives us a tool for sailing in a wide wind range with one wing.”

--

me: Much like with the self-correcting-ride-height foil shapes that ETNZ pioneered, and that we see creeping into some of the new cat styes listed above and elsewhere:

There's the potential that wings, especially new ones with the ability to generate extra RM, will be a big takeaway from AC35 if this facet of the DR does happen, a potential that we'd see this trickle down to hi-po cats too. You get the light weight necessary for efficient foiling, plus the RM you want but without the weight of a monohull's keel.

 

[dogwatch]

^

Has nothing to do with making the logistics involved with wingsails accessible to 99.999% of sailors.

 

[~Stingray~~]

^

Has nothing to do with making the logistics involved with wingsails accessible to 99.999% of sailors.

So the F what?

There was plenty of discussion about the possibility to over-rotate wingtips in the lead-up to this past cycle and here we have Gino M saying it may be a key part of the next Rule.

If you don't think that idea has very cool possibilities, simply because you're stuck on if it would ever affect "99.999% of sailors," is completely irrelevant to my posted suggestion that this could be as important a coming development as the foil-shapes being adopted by, yes, hi-po cats.