TS5 capsize

[jmh2002]

@Zonker

I'm a former Commercial Master, so thanks but I don't really need a lecture on the COLREGS or RADAR...

So, sorry but in my opinion I find your suggestion to only turn radar on periodically when at sea to be ridiculous in a modern context where the type of yachts we are talking about are drawing enough power with their fridges, freezers, inverters, electric galleys, TVs, winches, navigation instruments, chart plotters, etc, etc that the draw from a modern black box radar is the least of their concerns.

Especially when the advantage is constant collision monitoring, and constant weather monitoring.

Additionally so on a small vessel which is low to the water, has minimal height of eye, and often limited line of sight when at sea.

And even more so on a performance cruising catamaran which is capable of travelling at speed.


^ right there are some factors that easily qualify as 'appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions' - let alone not forgetting about the wording 'all available means'.

As you even alluded to, in the event of an incident you would be hard pressed to make a substantive argument as to why you were not using your radar (and an insurance company may even deny a claim).

So, if you have radar, please use it.
And if you don't know how to use it properly, please take some courses.


PS: are you really trying to frighten people away from using their radar by suggesting that a modern radar as fitted to the type of yachts we are discussing will only last for 83 days if used 24/7? Are yachts really replacing their radar every season? Of course they aren't. I think you know better than this, so suggesting it in the context of this discussion is disingenuous.


It's 2023 now in case nobody noticed...

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

There are a LOT of cruising cats out there, mostly lower power/weight than TS5's but for sure they have encountered more severe conditions, on many occasions, over the last sixty odd years, than those in which these capsizes occurred.
So very many, in charter and private use, are operated by pretty clueless folk and yet the very vast majority stay shiny side up.
Maybe it's that more extreme power to weight or maybe the reserve righting moment is too small at higher operating speeds.
Something is up!

I've said it before.... This failure rate is mostly due to the type of people that buy or operate these boats...it's racing idiots like me they love speed and push them too far.... how far is too far...? You don't know till you know.... I now know........

 

[Zonker]

The lifetime quotes for the Furuno radars comes from the Furuno's own literature, so yes, magnetrons can and do wear out in some small boat radars . More recent digital ones won't (no magentron). I don't know if turning on/off for shorter periods matters or if they last longer if kept on 24/7.

Not every cruising sailboat out there has huge reserves of power. My suggestion to turn it on to watch for weather (mostly at night) was in the discussion of to watch for squalls. Yes the performance boats usually do have lots of power.

But I wrote the above because (a) a lot of people don't know magnetron radars have a short lifespan (b) I don't think it's unreasonable to turn them off when conditions warrant.

Yes, it's 2023 and defender.com is still selling older style radars....

Commercial boats with 24/7 generators don't really worry about power.

 

[jmh2002]

I've said it before.... This failure rate is mostly due to the type of people that buy or operate these boats...it's racing idiots like me they love speed and push them too far.... how far is too far...? You don't know till you know.... I now know........

I agree, it can be people that want to push and go fast - although it may also be people (perhaps other crew members onboard) that don't have as much experience and therefore also just don't know 'how far is too far'...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, slowing down, on a boat that you bought specifically to go fast, may well be counter intuitive.

If we are talking specifically about the Marsaudon boats - well, I don't think many prospective owners look at them with the premise of 'I will buy a Marsaudon to sail slower and have more comfort...'

...I think that this is an issue with performance cruising multihulls. People buy them because they want to have fast passages - so an extra reef in the mainsail may well be counter intuitive to the whole premise of this type of boat.

 

[El Borracho]

Furuno manual says expected life is 2000 to 3000 hours of use or stand-by. Not much for commercial users: 100 days. Longer than an impeller, but definitely something to consider after a long cruise.

Magnetrons are obsolete for small craft radar. But I wasn’t impressed with the poor WX detection of the now-passé broadband radars. Glad I waited for the modern solidstate radars. The instant on for WX checks saves a great amount of power.

Some posts above have underestimated squall building. In the ITCZ, for example, it is not uncommon to build from calm (no reef?) to 30 or 40 knots in under a minute. Nor will attentive watch standers necessarily see them coming, especially at night. The wild shift in direction is a plus, as is a solid overcast hiding the monster. Building seas can appear soon after. More than one sailor has thought “Gee, this new breeze is sweet. I’ll unroll some more headsail...”

 

[Zonker]

As soon as I felt that nice cold breeze (or the lightest drops of rain that get carried ahead of the wind) I would run for the furling line for the genoa and start reefing the sail fast. The air temperature difference is significant and key to waking you up a bit.

 

[Lykke]

I've said it before.... This failure rate is mostly due to the type of people that buy or operate these boats...it's racing idiots like me they love speed and push them too far.... how far is too far...? You don't know till you know.... I now know........

A certain Frenchman with the last name starting with G knows 2-3 times better than you

 

[Dogfish]

Anybody can get caught out, but there are a lot of fast sailors who don't "feel" their boats don't know if thats the right word. Same as been a good sailor does not make you a seaman. Seamanship you can learn but some people never get the "feel". You cannot buy it and it's a gift from the god. Might sound a bit nutty but you get my drift.

 

[us7070]

have any of the 42's capsized?

I can only recall hearing about the 50's

 

[Dogfish]

Not as far as I am aware.

 

[40Plus]

https://na01.safelinks.protection.o...xhnpk3uiXViCvJv1+nNKZD9o55eRfwtzM=&reserved=0

 

[he b gb]

If you are inside the saloon on watch at night (as I usually was) the least you should do is get up every 15 minutes go outside and look around you, at the big towering clouds that are slowly creeping up on you. It's hard to be surprised by a squall if you do that but can happen.

Run your radar every 15 minutes if you have one. Look for the big black blob of a huge rain squall sneaking up in the dark on a passage with no moon (much harder to see the big cumulonimbus on a dark overcast night than a clear night with the cloud just hanging there against the starry background.

If you get lazy and sit inside on your watch for an hour you can easily be overtaken by a big squall. And the wind can jump to 15 knots (where you have full sail set downwind), to 30+ knots.

I suspect most of these capsizes are less about sea state and more about big fast jumps in wind speed with very powered up boats.

As soon as I felt that nice cold breeze (or the lightest drops of rain that get carried ahead of the wind) I would run for the furling line for the genoa and start reefing the sail fast. The air temperature difference is significant and key to waking you up a bit.

bit hard to feel the nice cold breeze and the drops of rain from the inside of the saloon, when that happens the squall usually hits in a matter of minutes, not 15 minutes later.
We always have someone in the cockpit keeping watch, helps to have nice dry protected cockpit and comfy helm chair. Just my 2c worth.

 

[Zonker]

Agreed. I made a point of getting up every 10-15 minutes to stand in the cockpit, scan the horizon for boats and look for weather changes.

Helm chair was not super comfy for hours.

Designated watch keeping location. Good visibility and extra comfy. Yes, I designed it that way. One of those "must haves" when I designed the saloon was very good visibility when seated.

Low but big windows, and a couch with a right angled corner. None of this fancy French curved settees that you can't be comfortable in the correct watch keeping posture!

Big back window (and back door was always open) to let in cold air.

 

[Al Paca]

Engineer, circumnavigator AND artist! Amazing.

 

[Rasputin22]

View attachment 578095
Engineer, circumnavigator AND artist! Amazing.

Zonk must be taking hints from Bob Perry on the use of varying line weights in his drafting.

 

[CapDave]

I agree, it can be people that want to push and go fast - although it may also be people (perhaps other crew members onboard) that don't have as much experience and therefore also just don't know 'how far is too far'...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, slowing down, on a boat that you bought specifically to go fast, may well be counter intuitive.

If we are talking specifically about the Marsaudon boats - well, I don't think many prospective owners look at them with the premise of 'I will buy a Marsaudon to sail slower and have more comfort...'

Our AGMs started dying 3 months ago, and we've been nursing them through the last few months to the start of our lithium ion replacement project - in 36 hours! Really didn't want to spend $3K for new batteries for 3 months.

As a consequence we were running the engine 2 or 3 times a night on our recent passage, while trying to conserve power. The crew had written standing orders to complete a 360 of the horizon within every 10 minutes, and run the radar once every 15 minutes to look for squalls, action distance 4 miles.

And I'd say we did 80% of the trip with one or more reefs in the main - heck we had two reefs in for the first 48 hours. For a downwind trip on a boat with a beach cat rig, it works really well to keep the main small, and vary the size of the genoa. Still did 8.6 knots for 1,245 miles.

Speaking of radar - we have an 18 month old Furuno DRS4D-NXT solid state radar, and I'm not too impressed by it. The presets for targeting traffic are so-so, while the presets for targeting rain work really badly. I went back to manual tuning and got it working much much better for imaging squalls with minimal work. Still not as good as the old magnetron unit......

Getting surprised by a big squall is definitely high on my list of concerns, and with batteries sorted we'll run the radar all night. My written standing orders also include crew discussing and confirming which way is out on every watch change - up or down.

 

[boardhead]

So I am either the luckiest guy on the planet or we sailed a way more suitable tool for enjoying fast offshore sailing than these "modern" hyped up cats.
No radar, no all round vision from below, no masthead windspeed, no automatic sheet release system, no up or down instructions - actually my wife has little interest in sailing the boat but a damn good set of eyes keeping watch and ensuring all aboard are fed and getting rest.
So factoring in 40' vs 50', 60' or even 70' for our tri vs these flipping cats I am gonna say there was and is a better way.

 

[Russell Brown]

Something tells me it's not because you are a scairdy cat either.
I'm a total pussy. That's how I get away with the things I do.

 

[Dogfish]

On the Multihull Scene facebook page there is some footage of a TS5 racing in the caribbean, looks real fast but that lee bow does go pretty deep and it's not really rough. Put a big sports rig and bigger seas and I definately can sea that going deep enough to submerge the flat deck and cause a few issues.
Broadhead, multihulls used to be sailed by enthusiasts in the old days now days they are almost the cruising boat of choice. I suspect you probably are a pretty smart sailor as well with sound boat you are familiar with. Times have moved on but as you say not always for the better, just a load of extra things to break. Can't tell you the number of trips to the masthead to "fix" the bloody wind transducer.

 

[socalrider]

So I am either the luckiest guy on the planet or we sailed a way more suitable tool for enjoying fast offshore sailing than these "modern" hyped up cats.
No radar, no all round vision from below, no masthead windspeed, no automatic sheet release system, no up or down instructions - actually my wife has little interest in sailing the boat but a damn good set of eyes keeping watch and ensuring all aboard are fed and getting rest.
So factoring in 40' vs 50', 60' or even 70' for our tri vs these flipping cats I am gonna say there was and is a better way.

One of the least appealing things to me when I consider switching to a multihull is the "sailing to the numbers" thing. As a long-time mono/dinghy sailor I love the feedback heeling provides & dislike staring at (and repairing) instruments.

My current semi-attainable dream cat would be something like an older Outremer 50/55. Is it possible & safe to sail something like that by "feel" or do you need a stack of index cards telling you when to reef, change headsails, etc... Maybe a dumb question. Not interested in pushing the envelope, but enjoy moving efficiently through the water.