This is exactly how we think about sailing our A57, and we always reduce headsail first. Full main and staysail is a very capable sail combo. Put a single reef in the main from there and it's rare to need less sail....We've had two reefs in three times I can think of in 8,500 miles between Newfoundland and Grenada, and never for long. And we only once had two reefs and a single reef in the staysail, beating into winds gusting 31.5 True with 10' waves - boat did pretty well - though a very narrow sweet spot in those conditions.soma said:
TS5 capsize
- Thread starter EarthBM
- Start date
Bill Gibbs
Anarchist
No disagreement with most of the comments here. Dumping sheets is always a solution, even in the zone of death. I've researched a lot of capsizes, and being unable/unprepared to do so is a common thread. Afterburner's capsize was with the previous owner. In my 15 years with her, my scary events had similar causes, sudden stops followed by rudder overpowered roundups leading to lateral capsize risk. We had winches with unused self-tailers, no cleats. We handheld sheets all the time on the winch, which wasn't a hardship for racing. At the tiller I held the main sheet in my forward hand, just like a beachcat.
Event #1 had us doing mid 20's downwind off Pt Dume, Calif. With a couple crew new for the day. A big kelp island appeared in front of us and we attempted a very fast gybe, unsuccessfully, as the main sheet was overwrapped on it's winch (newbies). We hit the kelp and stopped, a bit nose down. The apparent wind clocked aft and built to the true wind. The main hooked up, created huge weather helm and Afterburner started rounding up at slow speed, overpowering the rudders, and heeling over. I was barely able to hold the helm up, slowing the roundup, until they dumped the main from the lee winch. Seemed like hours. A lateral capsize after a sudden stop and roundup is a real danger.
Event #2 was double reefed in big winds and big steep 16' (?) seas, downwind again. Couldn't slow down below wave speed and surfing was crazy fast. A bigger wave stuffed us right into the back of the one in front, water up to the mast, rudders out of the water, and a big slow down. 20% of a pitchpole? Spin was released as this happened, and the main shortly after we slowed and started to round up again, the sterns came down. Our newbie that day was a mono racer who thought he was going to die. It was a bit hairy.
We had Wahoo in the same race years later, same location, similar winds and seas, and the same thing happened. Because Wahoo isn't as overpowered as Afterburner, we hadn't reefed yet (a mistake). Big wave, we surfed down it and stuffed big time, water over the cabin top. On Wahoo I helm at a wheel standing. I was knocked down, couldn't see a thing. But I could feel the stern rising. The spinnaker block lashing had failed at impact, taking out a lifeline stanchion, and jamming block & stanchion on to the winch preventing further easing. The failure had eased 8 feet or so of spin sheet. This was pretty lucky I think. I could feel Wahoo starting to round up and heel as I'm screaming for someone to dump the main. He'd been knocked down too. He got it dumped. We got things sorted out and got back into the race. Deja Vu moment.
In bringing Wahoo home 4k nm, we reefed early, often at night, ran a screecher instead of spinnaker, hit squalls, big seas and big winds, and never approached a capsize. Over 14 knots of boat speed we'd have someone standing/sitting by a sheet tail, in a cam cleat off the winches. In an early leg, the autopilot had us surfing down waves at 19 knots while we had dinner and toasted her tracking on rails. It dawned on me that this might not be a safe cruising practice, so we got in the habit of reducing sail whenever there weren't crew standing by to respond.
Event #1 had us doing mid 20's downwind off Pt Dume, Calif. With a couple crew new for the day. A big kelp island appeared in front of us and we attempted a very fast gybe, unsuccessfully, as the main sheet was overwrapped on it's winch (newbies). We hit the kelp and stopped, a bit nose down. The apparent wind clocked aft and built to the true wind. The main hooked up, created huge weather helm and Afterburner started rounding up at slow speed, overpowering the rudders, and heeling over. I was barely able to hold the helm up, slowing the roundup, until they dumped the main from the lee winch. Seemed like hours. A lateral capsize after a sudden stop and roundup is a real danger.
Event #2 was double reefed in big winds and big steep 16' (?) seas, downwind again. Couldn't slow down below wave speed and surfing was crazy fast. A bigger wave stuffed us right into the back of the one in front, water up to the mast, rudders out of the water, and a big slow down. 20% of a pitchpole? Spin was released as this happened, and the main shortly after we slowed and started to round up again, the sterns came down. Our newbie that day was a mono racer who thought he was going to die. It was a bit hairy.
We had Wahoo in the same race years later, same location, similar winds and seas, and the same thing happened. Because Wahoo isn't as overpowered as Afterburner, we hadn't reefed yet (a mistake). Big wave, we surfed down it and stuffed big time, water over the cabin top. On Wahoo I helm at a wheel standing. I was knocked down, couldn't see a thing. But I could feel the stern rising. The spinnaker block lashing had failed at impact, taking out a lifeline stanchion, and jamming block & stanchion on to the winch preventing further easing. The failure had eased 8 feet or so of spin sheet. This was pretty lucky I think. I could feel Wahoo starting to round up and heel as I'm screaming for someone to dump the main. He'd been knocked down too. He got it dumped. We got things sorted out and got back into the race. Deja Vu moment.
In bringing Wahoo home 4k nm, we reefed early, often at night, ran a screecher instead of spinnaker, hit squalls, big seas and big winds, and never approached a capsize. Over 14 knots of boat speed we'd have someone standing/sitting by a sheet tail, in a cam cleat off the winches. In an early leg, the autopilot had us surfing down waves at 19 knots while we had dinner and toasted her tracking on rails. It dawned on me that this might not be a safe cruising practice, so we got in the habit of reducing sail whenever there weren't crew standing by to respond.
Another TS5
forums.sailinganarchy.com
With A55/57 capsizes I thought it was the inside helm - things get wet, the driver gets inside, loses touch with conditions. With TS5 it’s probably just power/righting moment + racing in this case.
Would be good to hear the recap
Loic Escoffier rescued off the coast of Ireland after capsizing in his ORC 50
Loic Escoffier has been rescued off the coast of Ireland after capsizing in his ORC 50 while racing solo in the Drheam Cup. Courtesy www.yachtingworld.com - Helen Fretter Loic Escoffier, who is the brother of Vendée Globe skipper Kevin Escoffier , was competing in the single-handed...
forums.sailinganarchy.com
With A55/57 capsizes I thought it was the inside helm - things get wet, the driver gets inside, loses touch with conditions. With TS5 it’s probably just power/righting moment + racing in this case.
Would be good to hear the recap
Wess
Super Anarchist
Design doesn't capsize a boat. Sailor's incompetence or hubris does, no? And I count myself in that. Haven't been over but damn close and each time my own damn fault. Sail safe!
so it looks like the FB post is gone
I assume this is another 50..., which one, and where?
SailingTips.Ca
Feigns Knowledge
It was Hallucine, either the same boat that flipped a couple years ago, or another with the same name...
do you know anything about the circumstances?
Where it happened.., was it in a race..?
MultiThom
Super Anarchist
Agree with this mostly...but on some smaller trimarans (my F242 for example), the factory mainsheet was too low in power and the mainsheet cleat was impossible to uncleat when really heavily loaded. I fixed it but that piece of equipment "nearly" caused a capsize once or twice before I did. So I guess the factory running rigging counts as design, at least in my book. But yah, my hubris to be in the race and carry that much sail in the slot was probably at least as much to blame.
MRS OCTOPUS
Anarchist
from farce book
French catamaran flips off Morocco,
5 people rescued by helicopter
The crew of the French catamaran "Hallucine" registered with FF in Martinique, which had triggered its beacon of distress on December 25, was rescued on the night of December 26, 2022, the Lisbon MRCC said.
The catamaran heading to the Antilles via the Canary Islands (Tenerife) overturned between Morocco and the Madeira archipelago. The catamaran overturned and was drifting 100 nautical miles south east of Madeira. The rescue beacon on the edge was triggered at 9:30pm and the call received by MRCC Madrid forwarded coordination to MRCC Lisbon. Although the wreckage area is Morocco, it's a Portuguese helicopter based in Porto Santo that intervened in the middle of the night of December 26. The 5 crew members, 4 men and one woman were recovered and taken to Porto Santo suffering from hypothermia.
The cause of the French catamaran "Hallucine" capsized isunknown for now .
French catamaran flips off Morocco,
5 people rescued by helicopter
The crew of the French catamaran "Hallucine" registered with FF in Martinique, which had triggered its beacon of distress on December 25, was rescued on the night of December 26, 2022, the Lisbon MRCC said.
The catamaran heading to the Antilles via the Canary Islands (Tenerife) overturned between Morocco and the Madeira archipelago. The catamaran overturned and was drifting 100 nautical miles south east of Madeira. The rescue beacon on the edge was triggered at 9:30pm and the call received by MRCC Madrid forwarded coordination to MRCC Lisbon. Although the wreckage area is Morocco, it's a Portuguese helicopter based in Porto Santo that intervened in the middle of the night of December 26. The 5 crew members, 4 men and one woman were recovered and taken to Porto Santo suffering from hypothermia.
The cause of the French catamaran "Hallucine" capsized isunknown for now .
Surely not again?
Link please?ok, multiple links on FB, not good: https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=hallucine catamaran
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nice way to spend Christmas - hypothermic on an overturned cat!
here is the OPC analysis from about when they flipped - i've studied the WX on this route and it's surprising how frequently lows and associated cold fronts make their way that far S over this stretch of water in the winter.
anyway - doesn't look like gradient winds were all that strong, but being that close to the low and the front, and with two other troughs in the region, there's a reasonable chance that there was some convective activity, or at least some gusty winds, around them.
It says they were between Madeira and Morocco - that Low is pretty close to Madeira , and just guessing but probably they wanted to stay in the W'rly, and not be in the S'rly ahead of the front.
Load-cells on shrouds are common on Gunboats. Are they being installed / commonplace on other performance catamarans?Another TS5
Loic Escoffier rescued off the coast of Ireland after capsizing in his ORC 50
Loic Escoffier has been rescued off the coast of Ireland after capsizing in his ORC 50 while racing solo in the Drheam Cup. Courtesy www.yachtingworld.com - Helen Fretter Loic Escoffier, who is the brother of Vendée Globe skipper Kevin Escoffier , was competing in the single-handed...
With A55/57 capsizes I thought it was the inside helm - things get wet, the driver gets inside, loses touch with conditions. With TS5 it’s probably just power/righting moment + racing in this case.
Would be good to hear the recap
boardhead
Anarchist
Actually the design does dictate the stability curve and the danger here is that higher performance, high prismatic hull forms come "unstuck" more dramatically than the lower prismatic older designs did.
Wess
Super Anarchist
Absolutely agree. But still the boat does not put itself over. The sailor does. Lord knows I have come close a few times and I have nobody to blame but myself.
boardhead
Anarchist
Not talking about a trimaran here Wess - for which the stability curve is much more forgiving - hence their dominence over catamarans in single handed offshore racing.
And yet the trend to high prismatic hull forms shows no signs of stopping in the performance catamaran segment.
Maybe these repeated incidents will cause some reconsideration?
Probably not...
harryproa
Anarchist
- 935
- 173
Expensive load cells and complicated electronics are one solution, which works as long as the point of sail allows the main to depower without hitting the shrouds and the sheets are free to release: ie not too many wraps on the winches, not too many blocks, no one standing on the sheet, no overrides, etc. To be reliable, these systems also need to know the point of sail as the shroud loading for a sideways capsize is likely different from the loads in a pitchpole. They should ideally be adjusted for the weight on the boat, which affects the righting moment.
A lower cost, more reliable system is a float on a wand which triggers a sheet release fuse when the hull flies a predetermined amount. If this fuse is located before the sheet gets to the winch or turning blocks, the sail is dumped regardless of how many turns are on the winch, whether the sheet is cleated or if someone is standing on the sheet.
This set up works best with low sheet loads, which are also a boon for easy trimming, safety and low cost equipment, but seem to be anathema for modern cruising cats.
The Harryproa solution (which would also work on a cat or tri, although maybe not as a retrofit) is unstayed masts with wishbone booms.
The vertical loads on the mainsheet are all kept within the rig, so the sheet only controls the angle of attack. If the sheet is released, the rig instantly weathercocks, the sheet goes slack, the hull goes back in the water and the boat drifts.
Added benefit is that reefing, hoisting and lowering, on any point of sail, with any wind strength is a simple, safe operation. No headsails eliminates all the loads and equipment these need.
Result: The fear of capsize and all the stress and expense related to it disappears, average and top speeds go up and sailing enjoyment increases.
The cost and stress reduction of no standing rigging and no sails in front of the mast are not to be sneezed at either.
Are you saying low prismatic hulls are sucked into the water more than the high prismatic hulls?
This would definitely be an advantage on the windward hull, not so much on the leeward one. And a major disadvantage all round when a capsize is not imminent.
The load-cell question was in response to:
Using the load cells as gauge not a fuse or a tripwire. Measuring the actual forces exerted on the rig should give objective feedback on how hard you are pushing the boat... compared to just windspeed, for example.
