Two boats rounding mark in opposite directions.

This really happened in today's race.  The SI (for reasons that made sense to nobody but the RC) specified a starboard rounding.  WTF?  Unfortunately, one boat didn't read the SI carefully enough and thought they were doing a port rounding.  As far as I can tell, rule 18 applies; both boats are required to leave the mark on the same side (regardless of the fact that one of them doesn't know that) and they're both in the zone.  None of the exceptions in 18.1(a)-(d) apply.  They're clearly overlapped, so 18.2 applies, but beats me which boat is inside or outside.  The next mark was upwind, so proper course to the next mark for S would be to harden up to close hauled on starboard, not that I think that matters to the rule.

Any idea what rules actually apply here?  In reality, S hailed to P that this was a starboard rounding and P headed up to round the proper way, several boat-lengths behind P, and got to chat about it back at the bar.  I was the skipper of S.  Last I saw, the skipper of P was looking for the RC chair to give him shit about putting starboard roundings in the SI.

port-starboard-rounding.graffle.jpg

 

DougH

Member
134
43
Port boat must yield to starboard boat. Even if starboard boat is sailing the wrong course and/or rounding the mark in the wrong direction. Overlap and "proper course" will not apply. The boat sailing the wrong way around the course will be screwed with a DNF in the end.

 

DELETED

Anarchist
531
209
As the diagram shows, i reckon:

S is Standon for Tack and Rounding as directed by SI. So even if S had yeilded for safety reasons, then got back oncourse and hoisted the protest rag, S is still winner and P as DougH says is a DNF.

P can go ranting to RC but if its in the SI Thems the rules. 
Not a bad idea to occasionally change course and roundings etc up, keep people on their toes and more interesting, especially if its a downwind rounding with Spinnakers.
 

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,705
121
OP's initial analysis is spot on.

The following apply


Case 12 





In determining the right of an inside boat to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), it is irrelevant that boats are on widely differing courses, provided that an overlap exists when the first of them reaches the zone.
 
and
 


USA Appeal US97




Silhouette vs. Air Boss
 

When rule 18 applies, there must be both an “inside” and an “outside” boat in order for rule 18.2 to create rights and obligations. When boats are approaching a mark from different directions, there may be no “inside” or “outside” boat, in which case the rules of Section A and B apply.
 
I think you can apply the US Appeal here, so neither boat is the inside boat so neither boat is required to give mark-room and its straight up rule 10.
 
Suppose the angle between the boats' courses was a little more acute, that is, both sailing a little deeper and converging about at the mark.
 
In that case, they are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and now, P is clearly inside S, S is required to give P mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
 
The each go their separate sides of the mark and meet up, P/S downwind of the mark.  So P does not keep clear of S and breaks rule 10, regardless of any mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).

On valid protest penalise P.
 
And give P a kick in the nuts for arguing with the RO.  The course is the course written in the SI.
 







 

ExOmo

Best Anarchist Ever
1,928
160
The Great Void
OP's initial analysis is spot on.

The following apply


Case 12 





In determining the right of an inside boat to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), it is irrelevant that boats are on widely differing courses, provided that an overlap exists when the first of them reaches the zone.
 
and
 


USA Appeal US97




Silhouette vs. Air Boss
 

When rule 18 applies, there must be both an “inside” and an “outside” boat in order for rule 18.2 to create rights and obligations. When boats are approaching a mark from different directions, there may be no “inside” or “outside” boat, in which case the rules of Section A and B apply.
 
I think you can apply the US Appeal here, so neither boat is the inside boat so neither boat is required to give mark-room and its straight up rule 10.
 
Suppose the angle between the boats' courses was a little more acute, that is, both sailing a little deeper and converging about at the mark.
 
In that case, they are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and now, P is clearly inside S, S is required to give P mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
 
The each go their separate sides of the mark and meet up, P/S downwind of the mark.  So P does not keep clear of S and breaks rule 10, regardless of any mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).

On valid protest penalise P.
 
And give P a kick in the nuts for arguing with the RO.  The course is the course written in the SI.
 
That was an interesting experience with the J/105 pole stuck in the 40.7 wheel after we got all tangled up...

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
40,092
7,612
Eastern NC
That was an interesting experience with the J/105 pole stuck in the 40.7 wheel after we got all tangled up...
I bet it helped both boats get up on plane

:ph34r:

To the OP- yes, starboard has right-of-way.

FB- Doug

 
Last edited by a moderator:

LB 15

Cunt
We had a 60 miler back in the day- Mooloolaba to Manly. Two fleets - one going all the way back to manly (leaving the Fairway buoy to port) and the local fleet (leaving the fair buoy to starboard) before retuning home. Both fleets share the same start, but neither had seen the others SI’s. 

This is BC (before computers). Never found out who was responsible but none of us realised it until 15  40ers arrived at the mark together. The language would have made a pig skinner blush.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
My interpretation would be that Port is entitled to room, but room is defined as “The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.” Rounding the wrong way is not complying with her obligations in a seamanlike way, so you don’t need to give her space to do that (other than avoiding collision). 

 

sailman

Super Anarchist
8,289
416
Portsmouth, RI
This happens at least one a season on the lower Narragansett Bay between the Jamestown YC PHRF Fleet and Newport YC OD fleet.  Even when they coordinate course they still choose to have mark rounding from opposite directions.

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
My interpretation would be that Port is entitled to room, but room is defined as “The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.” Rounding the wrong way is not complying with her obligations in a seamanlike way, so you don’t need to give her space to do that (other than avoiding collision). 
If you draw in a "corridor" from where P enters the zone to rounding the mark on the correct side and then sail the course, that's the room that P is entitled to. If she's sailing outside that corridor she has no mark-room protection and it's just port-starboard.

 

John Ball

Member
230
7
BC, Canada
Even though port is sailing the wrong side of the mark, she is not on a course for a Marks to Stbd, and both boats should be rounding the mark the same way, so R 18 does apply.

The heading is more than 90 degrees to the wind, so the two boats may be considered overlapped as R 18 applies. Port is inside boat and is entitled to mark room however mark room only allows her to sail close to the mark if her proper course is to sail close to the mark. As Port is going in the wrong direction, she is sailing outside of what her proper course would be - so she is subject to R 10 and must stay clear of S.

John

 

John Ball

Member
230
7
BC, Canada
This happens at least one a season on the lower Narragansett Bay between the Jamestown YC PHRF Fleet and Newport YC OD fleet.  Even when they coordinate course they still choose to have mark rounding from opposite directions.
Then R 18 does not apply and the other rules of Part 2 do apply.

John

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
40,092
7,612
Eastern NC
Even though port is sailing the wrong side of the mark, she is not on a course for a Marks to Stbd, and both boats should be rounding the mark the same way, so R 18 does apply.

The heading is more than 90 degrees to the wind, so the two boats may be considered overlapped as R 18 applies. Port is inside boat and is entitled to mark room however mark room only allows her to sail close to the mark if her proper course is to sail close to the mark. As Port is going in the wrong direction, she is sailing outside of what her proper course would be - so she is subject to R 10 and must stay clear of S.

John
How do you figure port is the inside boat?

They are overlapped, but unless it's clear that one is going to arrive at the mark ahead of the other, I don't see any way that one has a prior claim to room over the other

FB- Doug

 

John Ball

Member
230
7
BC, Canada
The mark is on the stbd side of S. P is on the stbd side of S. If P were aiming to pass the mark to stbd correctly, she would be between S and the mark.

As they appeared to enter the zone overlapped, 18.2(b) applies. If P ends up astern of S, she is still entitled to mark room under 18.2(c) if the overlap is broken.

As drawn, Port loses the exoneration provided by mark room as she is sailing outside the room she is entitled by proper course.

John

 
Top