Uglyboat Admiration Society Hang Out

Tucky

Super Anarchist
3,497
19
Maine
For me, weather helm is the angle of the rudder, period. I'd use heavy or light helm to describe the steering effort, or just call it steering effort. My boat has a bit of weather helm but almost zero helm effort- some people find that strange.

It is a beautiful cassette rudder designed by Ian Farrier. There are adjusting bolts in the cassette that change the rudder position slightly and I have it set for very little effort. The weather helm results from sail and foil balance. I'll skip my rant about "leeway" here, but my boat does not have any of it <_< I sail at a slight angle of attack. Everything I've read about drag suggests that in the end a small angle of attack for the hull has a positive lift/drag benefit, and a slight bit of weather helm does so as well.

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
41,055
8,018
Eastern NC
For me, weather helm is the angle of the rudder, period. I'd use heavy or light helm to describe the steering effort, or just call it steering effort. My boat has a bit of weather helm but almost zero helm effort- some people find that strange.

It is a beautiful cassette rudder designed by Ian Farrier. There are adjusting bolts in the cassette that change the rudder position slightly and I have it set for very little effort. The weather helm results from sail and foil balance. I'll skip my rant about "leeway" here, but my boat does not have any of it <_</> I sail at a slight angle of attack. Everything I've read about drag suggests that in the end a small angle of attack for the hull has a positive lift/drag benefit, and a slight bit of weather helm does so as well.
Well, of course it goes wihout saying that multihulls are superior in all respects...

:wacko:/>

Now that that's out of the way... there is a big difference between steering effort and how the helm pulls (or doesn't) as the boat heels, yaws, or otherwise. Perhaps feedback is a better term. However, I've sailed with a lot of people who described "weather helm" as needing to pull the tiller as the boat powered up / heeled; when in fact the rudder angle didn't change or was very slight.

If hulls had a better lift/drag ratio for resisting leeway, the America's Cup boats would have bigger hulls and no foils under them. QED

The only reason not to have a gybing board (centerboard / daggerboard / whatever) is that it's complex & expensive to do so, and a very good case is made that the high-performance vessels which benefit most from them, gain more by having the sailors concetrate more on sail & weight trim instead of being distracted by finicky adjustment of 0.01 degree on the underwater foil.

Do boats benefit in windward performance from having a slight rudder angle? The traditional answer is yes, I think so too, but it's easy to overdo it. 6 degrees would be much too much IMHO

FB- Doug

 
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Raz'r

Super Anarchist
59,802
4,558
De Nile
There's a possible downside to a balanced rudder I hadn't realized. I sold my boat to a guy who liked to sail in big air. He was out one day in the remnants of a hurricane, and snapped the rudder off. We didn't talk much about it but I gathered that while there was a lot of "weather helm" due to sailing angle, full main up and little jib, etc, the rudder was so nicely balanced that there was no force input required to have so much helm. He got no feedback that the rudder was over-stressed.

Now, the rudder shouldn't have broken anyway, it should be able to handle the force of being at 90 degrees to the water flow at the highest speed ever anticipated, with a safety factor, but not all rudders are that strong I guess.

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Ocam:

Maybe in adding balance area to the rudder he increased the rudder overall area and in doing that increased the loads. Still, I agree with you, there should have been enough of a safety factor to prevent the modified rudder from breaking.

Can't recall a time when I felt a a rudder was not being "overstressed" even with balance area. I'll have to think about that a while.

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
59,802
4,558
De Nile
it's always possible he had feedback, but forgot it given the events that occurred right after the rudder broke….

He mentioned the round up was so violent that he thought the boat was going to flip over backwards (a 34' trimaran)

 
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blackjenner

Super Anarchist
picnic018.jpg


picnic3.jpg


http://www.rvharvey.com/picnic.htm

It can be yours for $2700 american dollars!



http://seattle.craig...3719873170.html

 

sailglobal

Anarchist
501
8
Weyalan:

I couldn't afford a haul out let alone the bottom paint for a 70'er. Imagine what new jib sheets cost.

Dashew is an idiot. I have talked to him at length. He knows nothing about yacht design.. He once told me that 6 degrees of of weather helm was good.
Bob, I reckon most of us know what weather helm is, but what is the measurement? ie, what does "6 degrees of weather helm" really mean? just curious, not contesting,,,,,,

 

Ishmael

Granfallooner
49,425
10,153
Fuctifino
I would take that as 6 degrees of constant rudder correction at a minimum, so that with increasing heel the rudder would need to move even more. I believe 2-3 degrees is considered healthy and beneficial to good windward performance.

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Ish is right, again. I can talk about this tomorrow. I am still recovering from yesterday.

BJ:

That poor little hooker isn't ugly. It's just awkward. I look beyond the skin and see a boat that could be loved. Poor little thing.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,255
1,665
Punta Gorda FL

My reaction to the first picture was that it's really not such an ugly little powerboat, then I saw the second pic. Masts on powerboats. Still not a great idea to me.

But I was very amused by this from your first link:

Another owner in the Chicago area said his Picnic gets up on a plane using a 20hp outboard. Some Picnics were delivered with a small Berkeley jet-pump. According to Stan Spitzer, it was driven by a Briggs & Stratton typically used on lawnmowers.
picnic_scuber04.jpg


If you removed the mast, put in a nice, big Rotax engine and a decent sized jet pump, it would be a cool little jet boat. If you think jet boats can be cool. I do. The jet boat we used to have was the second most fun powerboat I have ever driven.

 

SemiSalt

Super Anarchist
7,729
259
WLIS
My reaction to the first picture was that it's really not such an ugly little powerboat, then I saw the second pic.
I rather like the reverse sheer. In fact, it didn't offend me deeply until I saw the underbody,

The picture does illustrate a couple things, especially that cheap fiberglass construction is almost always ugly. Also that reverse sheer calls for a reverse rake in the transom. In the Picnic, I'm sure the transom was just an ordinary powerboat thing, but it's ugly. The flare of the topsides aft seems really out of place, but mini-hiking racks could be useful to a boat with little or no ballast.

I'm reminded of the Rhodes Continental 22 which also has some flare in the topsides. I never thought it was an attractive boat, but it stayed in production with various builders for quite a while. I always wondered what Mr. Rhodes thought of it.

05190017.jpg


 

blackjenner

Super Anarchist
Ish is right, again. I can talk about this tomorrow. I am still recovering from yesterday.

BJ:

That poor little hooker isn't ugly. It's just awkward. I look beyond the skin and see a boat that could be loved. Poor little thing.
I wasn't sure if it was truly ugly or not. I mean, the bar was raised pretty high here in the past. I do know it belongs here, in this discussion, at least.

You do have a point. Not all boats are pretty, but sometimes we can love them anyway. Case in point: my old goldenrod San Juan 21.

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Exactly BJ. The SJ 21 was no beauty queeen but it was a very capable boat and one enjoyed by a lot of experienced sailors.

And you are correct. We have raised the bar for ugly pretty high here.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,255
1,665
Punta Gorda FL
Not really all that ugly by the standards set in this thread, but goes here because my objection to masts on powerboats extends to half-masts on sailboats...

stubby-little-mast.jpg


Sorry about the long-distance iPhone shot and resulting crappy picture. The apology goes for this boat too. It's not really ugly either, but it seems to have a yard for a square sail or something. It's not a cutter. That lower roller furling jib belongs to the boat behind it, but both boat and mast are obscured by the subject boat.

squarerigger-in-srq.jpg


Why?

 

Veeger

Super Anarchist
Not really all that ugly by the standards set in this thread, but goes here because my objection to masts on powerboats extends to half-masts on sailboats...

stubby-little-mast.jpg


Sorry about the long-distance iPhone shot and resulting crappy picture. The apology goes for this boat too. It's not really ugly either, but it seems to have a yard for a square sail or something. It's not a cutter. That lower roller furling jib belongs to the boat behind it, but both boat and mast are obscured by the subject boat.

squarerigger-in-srq.jpg


Why?
Because some people dream of sailing a 'ship'. (and lot's of em don't like spinnakers!) I 'get it' but wouldn't 'do it'...

 

SemiSalt

Super Anarchist
7,729
259
WLIS
It's not really ugly either, but it seems to have a yard for a square sail or something. It's not a cutter. That lower roller furling jib belongs to the boat behind it, but both boat and mast are obscured by the subject boat.

squarerigger-in-srq.jpg


It looks like there is a roller-furling staysail that's sheeted to the head of the mizzen mast. I don't see that drawing well.

If that is a yard for a squaresail, I don't see how it interacts with the roller furling headsail. It would interfere with any sail with more minimum overlap.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,255
1,665
Punta Gorda FL
I had not even noticed that staysail sheeted to the mizzen masthead, but I think you're right.

The square sail, and I'm pretty sure that's what it is, is just a puzzle, but I think Veeger has it right. It's there because. No other reason, certainly not one related to performance, just because.

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
I think he wanted ratlines. Maybe he had visions of eyepatches dancing in his head. So he put them on. Then he needed some reason to climb the ratlines so he added the yard.

 

Sailbydate

Super Anarchist
11,228
2,988
Kohimarama
I think he wanted ratlines. Maybe he had visions of eyepatches dancing in his head. So he put them on. Then he needed some reason to climb the ratlines so he added the yard.
Ha, ha. I think you're right, Bob. Maybe he's been reading too much O'Brian, Stockwin, Kent or Pope! Not forgetting Forrester of course. But at least he's on the water and that probably suits him just fine. :)

 
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