Ukraine and Only Ukraine. If it isn't about Ukraine then fuck off

D

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Oh those treaties we refused to uphold in 2014. Neglected this thread. Sorry there’s a lot of wooly pated responses that I could feast on.
 

mikewof

mikewof
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I missed it. Is the UK PM going on National TV and saying they will use Nukes against France if they have to, and no she's Not Kidding?

Really, Mike?
Really JBSF? You insist on reducing the Nonproliferation Treaty to a reality show?

The NPT has specific requirements about disarmament, it has nothing to do with political saber-rattling.

Russia is a mess, run by a murderous tyrant, and they have stayed compliant with their NPT obligations. Britain is a highly organized industrial power run by a sporadically ineffectual parliament that has managed to now shit all over their NPT obligations.

So yeah, you missed it, specifically the part how NPT signatories are supposed to reduce the size of their stockpiles, not increase them.
 

mikewof

mikewof
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Why TF would the UKR want to nuke their own territory??? If russian uses a nuke against the UKR, I'd say let them lob one at Moscow. In fact, I'd be OK if they borrowed a couple of B-2s and 6-9 B-61 Mod12s from us to use against Putin's bunker.

All Bravado aside.....My real question is what does the US, NATO and Europe do if Russia pops off a Nuke in the UKR?? I think Putin is betting on the Flop that the West folds out of fear of a Nuke exchange escalating and lets UKR twist in the wind. I hope not, but I have a strong suspicion that will happen. The Euros especially...... I fear they will go "Yanno, we liked our nice warm houses heated by Russian gas during the winter. And besides, what is Ukraine to us anyway? Maybe this little dust up isn't really our business anyway".
If anyone uses a nuke in a war, it will lead to global thermonuclear war. Your theories are the ravings of a lunatic.
 
D

Deleted member 149385

Guest
Really JBSF? You insist on reducing the Nonproliferation Treaty to a reality show?

The NPT has specific requirements about disarmament, it has nothing to do with political saber-rattling.

Russia is a mess, run by a murderous tyrant, and they have stayed compliant with their NPT obligations. Britain is a highly organized industrial power run by a sporadically ineffectual parliament that has managed to now shit all over their NPT obligations.

So yeah, you missed it, specifically the part how NPT signatories are supposed to reduce the size of their stockpiles, not increase them.
Ok Wofesy, how are the signatories replenishing their mistakes?
 

hobie1616

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Pentagon Plans to Set Up a New Command to Arm Ukraine, Officials Say

The Pentagon is preparing to overhaul how the United States and its allies train and equip the Ukrainian military, reflecting what officials say is the Biden administration’s long-term commitment to support Ukraine in its war with Russia.

The proposal would streamline a training and assistance system that was created on the fly after the Russian invasion in February. The system would be placed under a single new command based in Germany that would be led by a high-ranking U.S. general, according to several military and administration officials.

Gen. Christopher G. Cavoli, the top American officer in Europe, recently presented a proposal outlining the changes to Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III, the officials said. Mr. Austin and his top aides are reviewing the plan and are likely to make a final decision in the coming weeks, senior U.S. officials said, adding that the White House and the Pentagon favored the approach. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe confidential discussions.

Just as the Pentagon has committed more than $16 billion in military aid to Ukraine — a combination of immediate shipments from stockpiles as well as contracts for weapons to be delivered over the next three years — the new command signals that the United States expects the threat from Russia to Ukraine and its neighbors to persist for many years, current and former senior U.S. officials said.

“This recognizes the reality of the important mission of security assistance to our Ukrainian partners,” said Adm. James G. Stavridis, a former supreme allied commander for Europe. “This will also create a formal security structure that our allies and partners can adhere to in terms of getting their equipment and training into the hands of the Ukrainians.”

Gen. David H. Petraeus, a former top U.S. commander in Iraq and Afghanistan, concurred. “This would be a very important and very appropriate initiative,” he said, “given the magnitude of the U.S. effort and the contributions of our NATO allies.”

The new command, which would report to General Cavoli, would carry out the decisions made by the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, a coalition of 40 countries that the Defense Department created after the Russian invasion to address Ukraine's needs and requests. Senior military officials from the member nations met in Brussels this week.

About 300 people would be dedicated to the mission, which would be in Wiesbaden, Germany, the U.S. Army’s headquarters in Europe. Much of the training of Ukrainian soldiers on U.S. weapons systems is already taking place there or nearby.

The changes, which aim to give a formal structure to what has been improvised since the war’s onset, are roughly modeled on U.S. train-and-assist efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past two decades.

The proposal originated this year with Gen. Tod D. Wolters, General Cavoli’s predecessor, and was fine-tuned after General Cavoli took command in July.

Lt. Gen. Christopher T. Donahue, who commanded the U.S. evacuation from Afghanistan in August 2021, has coordinated much of the U.S. military assistance to Ukraine from behind the scenes over the past several months.

From his forward headquarters in Wiesbaden, General Donahue, a former commander of the 82nd Airborne Division who now leads the Army’s 18th Airborne Corps, has helped oversee training, talking to Ukrainian generals about their battlefield needs and drawing on his Special Operations background to advise his Ukrainian counterparts.

But General Donahue and his command staff, who have been deployed to Poland and Germany since the early days of the war, are scheduled to return to their main headquarters at Fort Bragg, N.C., in the next month, Defense Department officials said.

But General Donahue and his command staff, who have been deployed to Poland and Germany since the early days of the war, are scheduled to return to their main headquarters at Fort Bragg, N.C., in the next month, Defense Department officials said.

The little-known group — formally called the International Donor Coordination Center, along with officers from more than two dozen countries — is playing a pivotal role in supporting Ukraine’s military as its battlefield needs become more complicated.

The Pentagon said on Wednesday that it would send an additional $1.1 billion in long-term military aid to Ukraine, including 18 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System launchers, or HIMARS. But unlike the 16 HIMARS the military rushed to Ukraine from its stockpiles over the summer, these new weapons will be ordered from the manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and will take “a few years” to deliver, a senior Defense Department official told reporters.

Ukrainian and American officials say the now weekly or biweekly Pentagon announcements of new shipments of weapons and munitions from U.S. inventories have given Kyiv’s senior commanders the confidence to plan complex simultaneous offensives, like those in the Kherson region in the south and in Kharkiv in the northeast.

Ukrainian soldiers are temporarily pulled off the battlefield to learn how to operate American and other Western weapons systems. About 2,000 Ukrainians have been trained so far on U.S. artillery and drones, according to Pentagon officials.

Wiesbaden would be the locus of U.S.-led training and assistance, but other Western countries are training Ukrainian soldiers elsewhere. Britain, for instance, started a program over the summer to train as many as 10,000 Ukrainian recruits in weaponry, patrol tactics, first aid and other skills at British bases. Denmark announced this month that it would begin a similar program for Ukrainian recruits.

Soon after Russia’s first invasion of eastern Ukraine in 2014, the United States and several other Western countries established training centers in western Ukraine. Special Operations forces trained thousands of Ukrainians before the latest conflict ended the instructions.

With no U.S. troops currently in Ukraine, providing support by phone or computer has been challenging, American officers say.

“It is much more difficult now to communicate with our allies and partners,” Maj. Gen. Steven G. Edwards, the head of U.S. Special Operations forces in Europe, said at a security forumthis month. “Teleconference is good, but it’s not nearly the same as what we had before.”

The proposed command would oversee formal instruction at training ranges in Germany as well as technical support centers that have been set up in neighboring countries.

A 50-member military repair team at a base in Poland, for instance, has been providing technical assistance to Ukrainian soldiers on how to fix damaged U.S.-provided arms, including M777 howitzers. Ukrainian manufacturers have taken the additional step of figuring out how to reverse-engineer spare parts.

Since the program began in June, more than a dozen teleconference channels have been set up with over 100 Ukrainian contacts, military officials said.

“This is the proverbial David and Goliath scenario, right?” Command Master Chief Peter C. Musselman, the senior enlisted Special Operations soldier in Europe, said at the security forum. “And David is holding his own pretty good right now.”
 

Rain Man

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This is a clear violation of thr non proliferation treaties we have signed.
Completely justified if Russia deviates from no first use. On top of that, if Russia uses a nuke it should be open season on Putin himself - the normal rules should not apply.
 

hobie1616

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1664515340129.jpeg
 

LeoV

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The good news, Ukr keeps advancing around Lyman, almost closing the pocket. Of course Russia send in reinforcement instead of withdrawing. Even the new conscripts are being send in with no training.

The bad news, missiles keep hitting Ukraine, around ten a day. Some hit military stuff, but not often. Most kill civilians.
Same with arty, they killed dozens of civilians in a front line crossing. That crossing was operational for months now with approval of both sides. And this day they decided to hit it, no warning.
 

shaggybaxter

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Really JBSF? You insist on reducing the Nonproliferation Treaty to a reality show?

Yep, the UK definitely fucked up. Regardless of the fact that :
  • it is still not 5% of Russian or US numbers; and
  • the number is to carry a full loadout on the existing SSBNs, not add any additional air or ground capability;
The non nuclear states agreed to stay non nuclear on the conditions of a continual reduction. So the UK will absolutely breach the agreement if they do.

They are still more NPT compliant than Britain and nobody said shit about Britain.

On the surface yes. But in any other context, that's utter shite. No fucking way are the two even comparable.
You seriously think that Russia is more anti-escalation than the UK?
 
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shaggybaxter

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Here ya go Mikey.....February 2019....

Russia has suspended a Cold War-era nuclear weapons treaty, President Vladimir Putin said, after the United States accused Moscow of violations and said it would withdraw from the arms control pact.

Key points:

  • Russia will start work on new missiles, including hypersonic ones
  • US and Russia both allege the other has violated the INF treaty
  • China urges dialogue amid fears of nuclear arms race
The Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty prevents the two superpowers from possessing, producing or test-flying ground-launched nuclear cruise missiles with a range of 500 to 5,500 kilometres.

The United States announced it will withdraw from the INF treaty in six months unless Moscow ends what it says are violations of the pact, but Russia denied violating the treaty. Mr Putin said Russia will start work on creating new missiles, including hypersonic ones, and told ministers not to initiate disarmament talks with Washington, accusing the United States of being slow to respond to such moves.

The US alleges a new Russian cruise missile violates the important pact, signed by former leaders Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987. The missile, the Novator 9M729, is known as the SSC-8 by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).

Russia said the missile's range put it outside the treaty and accused the US of inventing a false pretext to exit a treaty it wants to leave anyway so it can develop new missiles
.
 
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shaggybaxter

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And another Mikey...really fucking recently....

Russia has blocked an agreement at the United Nations that was aimed at bolstering the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) because Moscow objected to a clause about control over the Zaporizhzhia power plant in Ukraine.

The failure to agree to a joint statement after four weeks of debate and negotiation among 151 countries at the UN in New York is the latest blow to hopes of maintaining an arms control regime and keeping a lid on a rekindled arms race.

The closing session was put off for more than four hours over Russian refusal to agree to a lengthy statement of support for the NPT which included a reference to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which is occupied by Russian forces close to the frontline in Ukraine’s south-east.

Alarm was raised on Thursday when the plant was temporarily cut off from the Ukrainian electricity grid but the connection was restored. Russian forces are reportedly planning to sever the plant more permanently from the grid, raising concerns of a possible disaster.


So tell me again how the UK are worse than Russia?
 
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mikewof

mikewof
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Yep, the UK definitely fucked up. Regardless of the fact that :
  • it is still not 5% of Russian or US numbers; and
  • the number is to carry a full loadout on the existing SSBNs, not add any additional air or ground capability;
The non nuclear states agreed to stay non nuclear on the conditions of a continual reduction. So the UK will absolutely breach the agreement if they do.



On the surface yes. But in any other context, that's utter shite. No fucking way are the two even comparable.
You seriously think that Russia is more anti-escalation than the UK?

Escalation of war is not the same thing as non-compliance of NPT and I didn't claim that they were, you just made that up a a strawman.

Now ...

Russia is run by a war-mongering and murderous tyrant. Britain is run by a representative parliamentary democracy. That we now have to worry about nuclear aggression from both Russia and Britain is ridiculous and not defensible.

Britain is moving forward with a redistribution of their existing fissile stockpile to add functional capability to previously non-functioning nukes. This is absolutely an expansion of their nuclear arsenal and the relative size of that arsenal doesn't change that, it simply removes hard-won NPT stability for nominal political posturing.
 

mikewof

mikewof
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And another Mikey...really fucking recently....

Russia has blocked an agreement at the United Nations that was aimed at bolstering the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) because Moscow objected to a clause about control over the Zaporizhzhia power plant in Ukraine.

The failure to agree to a joint statement after four weeks of debate and negotiation among 151 countries at the UN in New York is the latest blow to hopes of maintaining an arms control regime and keeping a lid on a rekindled arms race.

The closing session was put off for more than four hours over Russian refusal to agree to a lengthy statement of support for the NPT which included a reference to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which is occupied by Russian forces close to the frontline in Ukraine’s south-east.

Alarm was raised on Thursday when the plant was temporarily cut off from the Ukrainian electricity grid but the connection was restored. Russian forces are reportedly planning to sever the plant more permanently from the grid, raising concerns of a possible disaster.


So tell me again how the UK are worse than Russia?

Maybe I can explain this in terms you will understand...

The neighborhood bully throws a bunch of rocks at you. You and the other kids recognize the source of these rocks and you all band together to successfully defend yourselves against the bully.

You then celebrate your victory over the bully at the local ice cream shop. And as you and your friends celebrate with your Rocky Road and your Swizzleberry Swirl, you look up to see that the old man proprietor of the ice cream shop has a racked and loaded shotgun pointed at the lot of you in an effort to impress his spinster girlfriend.
 

00seven

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Maybe I can explain this in terms you will understand...

The neighborhood bully throws a bunch of rocks at you. You and the other kids recognize the source of these rocks and you all band together to successfully defend yourselves against the bully.

You then celebrate your victory over the bully at the local ice cream shop. And as you and your friends celebrate with your Rocky Road and your Swizzleberry Swirl, you look up to see that the old man proprietor of the ice cream shop has a racked and loaded shotgun pointed at the lot of you in an effort to impress his spinster girlfriend.
OK. As analogies go, that's weird
 

mikewof

mikewof
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OK. As analogies go, that's weird
It makes about as much sense as a marginal nuclear power (with a largely superfluous nuclear arsenal) deciding to destabilize a global nuclear treaty in order distract from failures of internal politics.
 

00seven

James "Grumpy" Bond
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It makes about as much sense as a marginal nuclear power (with a largely superfluous nuclear arsenal) deciding to destabilize a global nuclear treaty in order distract from failures of internal politics.
Right. So the US has made it public knowledge that the POTUS is always within reach of the "football" (an overt threat) and the UK is the bad guy? Really?
 




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