Ukraine and Only Ukraine. If it isn't about Ukraine then fuck off

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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What makes that article a fantasy? Did you read it?
I was referring to Talk-To-Himself Tom's gunfondling fantasies, not your cited article.

I did read it (just read it again), and it relayed a good bit of information about the pre-invasion actions of Zelenskyy and his gov't. Thanks.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
I was referring to Talk-To-Himself Tom's gunfondling fantasies, not your cited article.

I did read it (just read it again), and it relayed a good bit of information about the pre-invasion actions of Zelenskyy and his gov't. Thanks.
I see it now. Thought it was a reply to my post, which the notification said it was. Now I see my post was merely imbedded.
 

spankoka

Super Anarchist
Agreed, I think Bolton is over the top-but I liked his book. He has a very droll sense of humor. One thing he mentioned is that because DeSantis is from Jacksonville-he likes the US military, and defense policy in a way that New York guy Trump never could.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
I read the article and I do not think your conclusion is on par with that article. Crimea was not even talked about. And goal was absolutely not Donbas or Crimea in Russian hands.
Quote;
However, the situation in the Donbas remains explosive. Despite the ongoing talks in Minsk and force disengagement on the line of contact, more cease-fire violations were committed in both Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in September than in the previous month. At this point, ending the conflict seems more an aspirational goal than one to be achieved on a timetable.
The point is Zelensky ran on a platform of normalizing relations with Russia in the existent condition of Russian occupation of both Crimea and the two break-away republics, which was distinct from the policy of the strident anti-Russian Poroshenko. At that time the majority of Ukrainians were open to accepting the situation as it was, ending the shooting, and moving on.
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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Eastern NC
I read the article and I do not think your conclusion is on par with that article. Crimea was not even talked about. And goal was absolutely not Donbas or Crimea in Russian hands.
Quote;
However, the situation in the Donbas remains explosive. Despite the ongoing talks in Minsk and force disengagement on the line of contact, more cease-fire violations were committed in both Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in September than in the previous month. At this point, ending the conflict seems more an aspirational goal than one to be achieved on a timetable.
The point is Zelensky ran on a platform of normalizing relations with Russia in the existent condition of Russian occupation of both Crimea and the two break-away republics, which was distinct from the policy of the strident anti-Russian Poroshenko. At that time the majority of Ukrainians were open to accepting the situation as it was, ending the shooting, and moving on.

IMHO you're both right, and talking past each other.

There really was no realistic prospect of peace or even a long-term cease fire, as long as there was prospect of Russia gaining more territory supporting the Donbas seperatists. The article doesn't address whether Zelenskyy realized this, and was trying anyway for the best outcome (because at that point they were not in a good position to fight Russia). I suspect he did.

There is still no prospect of real peace, until Russia is defeated and beaten down enough to give up the ambition of conquering Ukraine again... along with the old Stalinist Empire.

I'm more interested in the results of the anti-corruption efforts. I think they've had pretty good UN/EU support in forensic financial analysts. The news of ousting pro-Russian gov't officials even months after the war started was a little disturbing.
 

LeoV

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Poroshenka was not anti Russian, just anti Russian influence in Ukraine. Military and political. Very reasonable after 2014.

On 26 August 2014, Poroshenko met with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Minsk where Putin called on Ukraine not to escalate its offensive. Poroshenko responded by demanding Russia halt its supplying of arms to separatist fighters. He said his country wanted a political compromise and promised the interests of Russian-speaking people in eastern Ukraine would be considered.
 

LeoV

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Maybe Ukraine was ready for peace, but as evident Russia wanted more.
Any source for your claim ? Ending of shooting and moving on, giving Russia all territory they occupied ? Because I never heard that that was a general position popular in Ukraine.

Zelensky is Pres since 2019 and tried to negotiate with Russia, Russia refused. And in 2020/2021 Covid was more in the news.

Ending the undeclared war with Russia was one of Zelenskyy’s promises, and he has tried adopting non-confrontational rhetoric towards Putin and making various concessions, such as holding elections in the occupied Donbas before reclaiming control of the Ukraine-Russian border – an extremely unpopular move in Ukraine.

The Normandy Meeting in Paris in December 2019 bore few results but, by demonstrating his willingness for constructive negotiations, Zelenskyy did succeed in swaying the support of Paris and Berlin towards Kyiv’s interpretation of the Minsk Agreements whereby security comes first and Ukraine’s sovereignty must not be further compromised by Russia and its proxies.

When Russia then rejected any amendments to the protocols..
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
Maybe Ukraine was ready for peace, but as evident Russia wanted more.
Any source for your claim ? Ending of shooting and moving on, giving Russia all territory they occupied ? Because I never heard that that was a general position popular in Ukraine.

Zelensky is Pres since 2019 and tried to negotiate with Russia, Russia refused. And in 2020/2021 Covid was more in the news.

Ending the undeclared war with Russia was one of Zelenskyy’s promises, and he has tried adopting non-confrontational rhetoric towards Putin and making various concessions, such as holding elections in the occupied Donbas before reclaiming control of the Ukraine-Russian border – an extremely unpopular move in Ukraine.

The Normandy Meeting in Paris in December 2019 bore few results but, by demonstrating his willingness for constructive negotiations, Zelenskyy did succeed in swaying the support of Paris and Berlin towards Kyiv’s interpretation of the Minsk Agreements whereby security comes first and Ukraine’s sovereignty must not be further compromised by Russia and its proxies.

When Russia then rejected any amendments to the protocols..
The evidence is self-apparent in the policy of seeking normalization in the condition which existed.
 

phillysailor

Super Anarchist
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Ukraine's done pretty well with military strategy, and their political work has been top notch.

I hope that, with the west's assistances they are able to attack their real enemy, V Putin.

A good destabilizing push may possibly be the wartime masterstroke they need. Some sort of corruption charge which exposed his armies to needless destruction, lying to wartime moms. Something his country's people find unforgivable and can be taken advantage of by people who currently live in understandable fear of his power.

That, or a lone assassin with access.

I'm not holding out much hope, but Russia ain't Ukraines enemy as much as one aging ex KGB agent.
 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
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Wet coast.
Ukraine's done pretty well with military strategy, and their political work has been top notch.

I hope that, with the west's assistances they are able to attack their real enemy, V Putin.

A good destabilizing push may possibly be the wartime masterstroke they need. Some sort of corruption charge which exposed his armies to needless destruction, lying to wartime moms. Something his country's people find unforgivable and can be taken advantage of by people who currently live in understandable fear of his power.

That, or a lone assassin with access.

I'm not holding out much hope, but Russia ain't Ukraines enemy as much as one aging ex KGB agent.
The Russian people have been effectively neutered by the Kremlin's harsh response to the initial protests against the war.

I can't imagine anything much more unforgivable than invading a more-or-less peaceful neighbor at a cost of $100B and the loss of 100K soldiers, only to find the Russian army on their back foot and likely to lose everything they gained plus Crimea.
 
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Virgulino Ferreira

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Brazil

(...) Most of the women invited to the meeting were later identified as people with links to the government, according to the independently-run Telegram channel Mozhem Obyasnit.

Among those identified was a Moscow municipal deputy from the ruling United Russia party, a local official from the Siberian republic of Tuva, and director Olesya Shigina, whose films have a reputation for being both pro-government and religiously conservative.

The Mozhem Obyasnit claims were echoed by activist Olga Tsukanova, a member of the Council of Mothers and Wives, an independent organization that lobbies for the rights of conscripts.

In a video posted online on Friday, Tsukanova referred to the women who had been invited to attend the Novo-Ogaryovo meeting as “pocket mothers.”



Russian soldiers who die in combat in Ukraine “belong to the state,” a regional governor said at a meeting with the mothers of fallen troops Thursday.

The blunt comments from Igor Kobzev, the head of the Irkutsk region in southeast Siberia, come as the Russian military officially acknowledges fewer than 6,000 casualties despite suffering major setbacks in its nine-month invasion. (...)


 

barfy

Super Anarchist
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I just gave a weeks wages to


These guys are legit, hard working, and share the most amazing aerial photography.

And I build and race quadcopters.

Help them out to buy a wing and share.
 




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