Ukraine

[Steam Flyer]

I hope the way is cleared for UKR to retake Severodonetsk soon. This can't be good for the orcs, especially with raw troops being shipped to the front.

 

[IPLore]

Unfortunately it's not BS, nor did I say that opposing aid to Ukraine was exclusive to Republicans in the US.

You implied it. You wrote that the Republican party was a "powerful ally" of Russia. That is absolutely untrue. Your desperation to make everything about politics is well known on these forums, and this time you have really stumbled.

The Pew Foundation conducted a survey of GOP voters to assess their attitude to the President's response to the crisis in Ukraine.
- 21% of registered GOP voters agreed that Biden's response is just about right. It is unsurprising, he is after all a Democrat. But
-54% of registered GOP voters disapprove of Biden’s Ukraine policy because he has not done enough to push back against Russian aggression.
Only 9% of GOP voters think that we are giving too much support to Ukraine.

In a Reuters survey, three-quarters of Republicans support U.S. arms shipments to Ukraine, rigorous economic sanctions, a ban on the import of Russian oil, and the seizure of assets from Russian oligarchs.

In a Gallup survey, only 15% of Americans held the view that Putin may have some justification for invading Ukraine. Democrats and Republicans both responded in the same way. There is no distinguishable partisan difference on this issue.

The reality is that opposition to intervention in Ukraine comes from the extreme of both parties . Once again, the far Left and the far Right are nearly indistinguishable. Both want to create a partisan issue where there is none. Both make an agonizing screeching sound like a nail been drawn across a blackboard. @dogwatch is right to try and keep them away from this thread and in their cages in PA

"This isn’t rocket science: when a smaller, free country is viciously attacked by a much larger authoritarian power, most Americans—including most Republicans and most Democrats —tend to sympathize with the little guy. They look to help if they can, understanding that broader interests may be at stake. At the same time, most Americans—including most Democrats and Republicans—look to avoid full-blown hostilities with one of the world’s nuclear power states. That is not an unreasonable mix of concerns. In fact, it sounds about right . The whole task of any U.S. president, in such a crisis, is to strike a healthy balance between competing priorities."

You can have the last word, I'm done with this, here.

Don't forget your hat and coat.

 

[pusslicker]

You implied it. You wrote that the Republican party was a "powerful ally" of Russia. That is absolutely untrue. Your desperation to make everything about politics is well known on these forums, and this time you have really stumbled.

The Pew Foundation conducted a survey of GOP voters to assess their attitude to the President's response to the crisis in Ukraine.
- 21% of registered GOP voters agreed that Biden's response is just about right. It is unsurprising, he is after all a Democrat. But
-54% of registered GOP voters disapprove of Biden’s Ukraine policy because he has not done enough to push back against Russian aggression.
Only 9% of GOP voters think that we are giving too much support to Ukraine.

In a Reuters survey, three-quarters of Republicans support U.S. arms shipments to Ukraine, rigorous economic sanctions, a ban on the import of Russian oil, and the seizure of assets from Russian oligarchs.

In a Gallup survey, only 15% of Americans held the view that Putin may have some justification for invading Ukraine. Democrats and Republicans both responded in the same way. There is no distinguishable partisan difference on this issue.

The reality is that opposition to intervention in Ukraine comes from the extreme of both parties . Once again, the far Left and the far Right are nearly indistinguishable. Both want to create a partisan issue where there is none. Both make an agonizing screeching sound like a nail been drawn across a blackboard. @dogwatch is right to try and keep them away from this thread and in their cages in PA

"This isn’t rocket science: when a smaller, free country is viciously attacked by a much larger authoritarian power, most Americans—including most Republicans and most Democrats —tend to sympathize with the little guy. They look to help if they can, understanding that broader interests may be at stake. At the same time, most Americans—including most Democrats and Republicans—look to avoid full-blown hostilities with one of the world’s nuclear power states. That is not an unreasonable mix of concerns. In fact, it sounds about right . The whole task of any U.S. president, in such a crisis, is to strike a healthy balance between competing priorities."


Don't forget your hat and coat.

Bullshit. The GOP's propaganda wing is all about Russia and supporting Russia and other rightwing dictators like Orban in Hungary. Remember your boy Trump's phone calls with Zelensky that got him impeached?

 

[enigmatically2]

We're supposed to be fighting the Russians (well at least according to Putin we are)

Big explosions at another Crimea airfield.

Lots of issues with mobilisation.One regiment will have all mobilised troops except the commander. That'll work

 

[MR.CLEAN]

The opponents to sending support to the Ukraine include Noam Chomsky, and left-wing media such as Jacobin, New Left Review, and Democracy Now!

whatabout whatabout whatabout?!

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Big explosions at another Crimea airfield.

plane skidded off the runway and munitions exploded. There's a vid. Hopefully it was a big plane full of iranian drones and their techs.

 

[Mark_K]

I have been watching this guys pro-russia channel for a while. He just became completely unhinged. After the first 4 minutes I think of calling an ambulance.

He has had to play a tricky game to keep his access ever since Putin put the crackdown on a couple months ago, and Dima has to give the devil some due. He started quoting casualty figures of Ukrainians as given by Russian sources the day after, a policy which is just like our Viet Nam body-counting days. It was a sly message to the experts who know the game. The Russian sense of humor is dry as fuk and highly ironic. I suspect he's playing it again in a certain way with that recent post. IMO Dima's reflecting the desperation he's seeing in the Russian military right now in a way they can't take offense to with that stuff, and included wild projections of massive Russian offensives as the message to the fans that he's either being forced to BS a bit right now or feels it wise to do so, lest he be cut off.

A scary time for Rooskie officers, it is.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

The reality is that opposition to intervention in Ukraine comes from the extreme of both parties .

The reality is that you started bothsidesing things a bit ago, presumably because something happened to make you grievance-filled.

The other reality is that by far the most watched pundit on American TV and the standard-bearer for the largest news outlet in the country is unabashedly pro-putin, so much so that he is featured on billboards in Moscow and daily on RT and other state outlets.

Feel free to point out how Noam Chomsky's points - and your other cited outlets with their THOUSANDS of readers - compares to the primetime Fox News/Breitbart juggernaut's pro-russian agenda, and remember that Tucker alone has something like 5M viewers a night.

 

[chesirecat]

Realities of war. Transcript from the frontline, Lyman

https://ukrainevolunteer297689472.wordpress.com/2022/09/30/its-a-slaughter/

 

[IPLore]

whatabout whatabout whatabout?!

Actually Clean, in this case the poster had made a series of blatantly misleading statemenst when he wrote that "the Republican Party" is "a powerful ally" of Russia, and "openly supports Russia" and "is saying ...the USA is supporting the wrong side in this war." This , of course, is factually incorrect.

In cross, I sanctioned his credibility in two ways:

1. I pointed out, supported by facts, that the vast majority of Republican party members and their elected representatives support Ukraine and think the USA should be doing more to support Ukraine.

2. I pointed out that there were prominent Democrats that were opposed to supporting Ukraine. They are in a minority, but so are the number of Republicans who are opposed to intervention on behalf of Ukraine.

Both are valid (and comply with FRE 611 )

The poster conceded that criticism of US support was not limited to a minority of Republicans....

nor did I say that opposing aid to Ukraine was exclusive to Republicans in the US.

He could not find a way to concede that the majority of Republicans want the USA to do more in support of Ukraine, but that's okay I think the point was well made.

 

[barfy]

The other reality is that by far the most watched pundit on American TV and the standard-bearer for the largest news outlet in the country is unabashedly pro-putin, so much so that he is featured on billboards in Moscow and daily on RT and other state outlets

And, not to be forgotten...

 

[Steam Flyer]

nor did I say that opposing aid to Ukraine was exclusive to Republicans in the US.

He could not find a way to concede that the majority of Republicans want the USA to do more in support of Ukraine, but that's okay I think the point was well made.

I hope that you're right, that the majority of Republican voters feel that way. I don't need to "concede" anything when you make false claims about what I said.

 

[IPLore]

The reality is that you started bothsidesing things a bit ago, presumably because something happened to make you grievance-filled.

Indeed, I studied Politics and Philosophy as part of a college major, decades ago. I have been familiar with the "Horseshoe Theory" of politics for more than "a bit ago".

You would need to have your head in the sand over the last 15 years not to observe that politics have become significantly more divisive in the USA.

To quote Nawaz's observation of the current trends in ideology " if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bully-boy tactics used by the far-right. The two extremes of the political spectrum end up meeting like a horseshoe, at the top"

Of course the Horse Shoe theory goes back much further than that and was first written about by commentators in the early 1930s when they were concerned by the manner in which the extreme right of the Harzburg party/DNVP was drawing closer to the extreme left of the German Socialist party, in opposition to the Zentrum party in the center. Their concern was prescient.

I dont consider myself "grievance-filled" but has something happened to worry me about where we are going with this? Yes. I would say that January 6th 2021 causes me some concern? How about you? Are you happy with the decline in political discourse in our institutions?

Feel free to point out how Noam Chomsky's points - and your other cited outlets with their THOUSANDS of readers - compares to the primetime Fox News/Breitbart juggernaut's pro-russian agenda, and remember that Tucker alone has something like 5M viewers a night.

Ironically, I agree with some of what Noam says about the causes of the current Ukraine crisis. I think he is right that we are partially responsible for the series of events that got us here. We tried to apply 21st century politics ("let us all be capitalist democracies, get mutually wealthy and get along with each other") to a part of the world where 20th century realpolitik of "balance of power" is still the way that things work. We were out of touch.
I disagree with him, because how we got here is now irrelevant. We are here. The only way forward now is to push Russia out of Ukraine.

 

[IPLore]

I hope that you're right, that the majority of Republican voters feel that way. I don't need to "concede" anything when you make false claims about what I said.

Respect!

If you hope and believe that, then we can move forward and focus on the topic in hand, which is Ukraine .

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Indeed, I studied Politics and Philosophy as part of a college major, decades ago. I have been familiar with the "Horseshoe Theory" of politics for more than "a bit ago".

You would need to have your head in the sand over the last 15 years not to observe that politics have become significantly more divisive in the USA.

To quote Nawaz's observation of the current trends in ideology " if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bully-boy tactics used by the far-right. The two extremes of the political spectrum end up meeting like a horseshoe, at the top"

Of course the Horse Shoe theory goes back much further than that and was first written about by commentators in the early 1930s when they were concerned by the manner in which the extreme right of the Harzburg party/DNVP was drawing closer to the extreme left of the German Socialist party, in opposition to the Zentrum party in the center. Their concern was prescient.

I dont consider myself "grievance-filled" but has something happened to worry me about where we are going with this? Yes. I would say that January 6th 2021 causes me some concern? How about you? Are you happy with the decline in political discourse in our institutions?



Ironically, I agree with some of what Noam says about the causes of the current Ukraine crisis. I think he is right that we are partially responsible for the series of events that got us here. We tried to apply 21st century politics ("let us all be capitalist democracies, get mutually wealthy and get along with each other") to a part of the world where 20th century realpolitik of "balance of power" is still the way that things work. We were out of touch.
I disagree with him, because how we got here is now irrelevant. We are here. The only way forward now is to push Russia out of Ukraine.

You're confusing horseshoe theory with bothsidesism. The modern theocratic, anti-intellectual movement began with Newt and the Kochs. It was gamed out, planned, and executed by he and a select group of ethically bankrupt politicians and consultants using the gullibility of religious, low IQ individuals (and their greedy and morally corrupt priests and ministers) with funding from the Kochs, Russia, and christian fundamentalists like the Devos family.

You provide a false comparison whenever comparing the mainstream GOP and its media mouthpieces with powerless fringe lefties.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Are you happy with the decline in political discourse in our institutions?

Not happy about it, but quite confident about the actual source of the problem, and it ain't Noam Chomsky.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

how we got here is now irrelevant.

Not really: It's very important to acknowledge how we got here: Russia invaded a sovereign nation in violation of the UN Charter and several of its own treaties.

The why is important too, though even simpler: Because Russia's economy, demographics, and culture are all in the process of failing, and autocrats don't like to fail: It has a way of reducing their lifespan.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Are you happy with the decline in political discourse in our institutions?

Not happy about it, but quite confident about the actual source of the problem, and it ain't Noam Chomsky.

Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

 

[IPLore]

You're confusing horseshoe theory with bothsidesism.

I am disappointed. Clean usually has the vocabulary to respond articulately without descending to pseudo jargon compounds with a suffix.

The modern theocratic, anti-intellectual movement began

Ahh that is better

You provide a false comparison whenever comparing the mainstream GOP and its media mouthpieces with powerless fringe lefties.

I am in fact comparing fringe righties with fringe lefties.
This is Horseshoe theory and is very different from presenting opposing arguments as if they have moral equivalency

( so much better than "bothsidesism", Really Clean you know you can do better!)

 

[MR.CLEAN]

I am in fact comparing fringe righties with fringe lefties.
This is Horseshoe theory and is very different from presenting opposing arguments as if they have moral equivalency

( so much better than "bothsidesism", Really Clean you know you can do better!)

This ain't a contract counselor. I use modern language to talk about modern issues.



Please explain how your definition of 'fringe' works with someone who has the highest rated show on cable news in the nation, with over 5M viewers a night and 25M cross platform fans.