Ukraine

[estarzinger]

Ha, NATO was formed precisely to protect the West from the USSR. So you are probably right. ;-)

When the USSR fell there was quite a bit of discussion about 'a new marshall plan' for the ex-ussr countries. The Germans basically vetoed the idea, saying they did not want a strong Russia.  It seemed shorted sighted to me at the time, and looks that way with hindsight.  I ran a large business development team over there (thru all the ex-soviet states) some years later and the russians (the leaders) had a huge chip on their shoulders which has only grown bigger.  imho we would have been much better off helping them into the european economy rather than forcing them into the russia mob.

in the end when the dust settles (and it will) there will be several power players keeping each other in check. 

well . . . . perhaps . . . . but imho more likely it will be a China uni-polar world.  The American empire is finished - it has huge momentum and will take a longish slowish decline, it will become 2nd tier. And Russia is and will remain a bit player - as someone put it rather crudely 'a gas station with nuclear weapons'.

 

[Guest]

Put this another way, if you have been told your whole life your country is good and another country is bad, then your wars and acts of aggression such as financial sieges are holy crusades of justice and light but "theirs" are pure evil.

Dead people in Ukraine are the same as dead people in the middle east, yet the ugly hordes are happy to cheer the deaths of "ragheads" on TV with sadistic glee. There are many level here and while its a cheap shot to make re US aggression, the common and most basic agreement is that warmongering and killing people is wrong.

I dont agree with Putin but this was signposted long ago, and you have to ask yourself what is the US doing in Ukraine. 

 

[Erwankerauzen]

The ideal might have been a NATO-included Russia, with a truly free democracy and so rid of the kleptocrats and oligarchs. 

Thank you to dare to put it on the table:

NATO including Russia the idea is here, I would have prefered EU including Russia, it could have put the focus on achieving economic parity intead of military one.

I remenber Putin visiting France around 2003, he was friendly a bit like a kid, with his eyes wide-open, dreaming of a Russia as a respected and useful economic partner for Europe.

A few years later, in 2007 his speach was bitter, So the question which remains imho is: what could have been done to avoid such an hostile & crazy drift ?

Could we get an honest answer to this question, we would be better equiped to manage future relationships with Russia, because whatever will be the outcome of this story, Russia will not disappear from the European landscape.

 

[Stingray~]

I dont agree with Putin but this was signposted long ago, and you have to ask yourself what is the US doing in Ukraine. 

What do you think 'the US is doing in Ukraine'? 

My guess is that the US has had roughly as much commercial business and other interests in Russia as what it had in Ukraine. If Putin thought Ukraine was a military threat to some idealized restoration of some old Russian empire, well... He was either wrong and/or using that 'threat' as his excuse for trying to make 'restoration' happen. Russia should instead have been actively working to join in with the modern world community - one where all countries are allowed, even encouraged, to prosper in peace.

China may do a hard-think in the wake of all this too. Why not be good friends with Taiwan, as opposed to wanting to overthrow it? Crazy..

 

[Erwankerauzen]

NATO including Russia the idea is here, I would have prefered EU including Russia, it could have put the focus on achieving economic parity intead of military one.

Thank you Caecilian for this semantic, it is about 45 years I have not heard this kind of arguments

Last time I heard similar words it was from the young communist students at 'University in the end of  70'

Joseph Staline himself used to call them useful idiots.

Dont try to develop other subjects I know already what you are thinking about Palestin/Israel .

Allah Wakbar

 

[Stingray~]

Roman Abramovich, Chelsea owner and Russian oligarch, sanctioned by U.K. government as sponsors cut ties - CBSSports.com

Sounds like Chelsea can't even sell tickets (beyond ones already-paid for)

 

[Sailbydate]

NATO including Russia the idea is here, I would have prefered EU including Russia, it could have put the focus on achieving economic parity intead of military one.

Nice ideal. But do we really see the like of, Putin fitting into a parliamentary model?

 

[Sailbydate]

Russia should instead have been actively working to join in with the modern world community - one where all countries are allowed, even encouraged, to prosper in peace.

Has anyone invited China to join this new ideal for World tranquility? 

 

[Stingray~]

Nice ideal. But do we really see the like of, Putin fitting into a parliamentary model?

Agreed. Russia getting included in the EU, and maybe NATO, won't happen unless and until politics and a whole bunch of other stuff changes in Russia. It will take time but maybe this war will at least begin the path correction.

Putin is surrounded by Yes-Men who will lie to please him and to save themselves but with the ancient Russian tradition of sudden overthrows there surely has to be a concern to him. I am (maybe naively) convinced that key RUS military commanders do have communication lines to their counterparts in the West. Related, we could start seeing defections to safe-havens.

 

[Stingray~]

Has anyone invited China to join this new ideal for World tranquility? 

Aside from Taiwan, China does not seem to have intents on expansionism. Do they hope to drive hard commercial deals across the world? Sure, but so do many capitalist democracies.

The really 'big war' everyone is facing together is Global Warming and China, thank goodness, is fully on board.

 

[Sailbydate]

Aside from Taiwan, China does not seem to have intents on expansionism. Do they want to drive hard commercial deals across the world? Sure, but so do capitalist democracies.

The really 'big war' everyone is facing together is Global Warming and China, thank goodness, is fully on board.

The folks of, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and, Tibet might not agree.

 

[Guest]

NATO including Russia the idea is here, I would have prefered EU including Russia, it could have put the focus on achieving economic parity intead of military one.

Thank you Caecilian for this semantic, it is about 45 years I have not heard this kind of arguments

Last time I heard similar words it was from the young communist students at 'University in the end of  70'

Joseph Staline himself used to call them useful idiots.

Dont try to develop other subjects I know already what you are thinking about Palestin/Israel .

Allah Wakbar

Israel/Palestine, what a shit show. Israel need an enemy, as does the US and Russia. This attack on Ukraine is as much to build Putins domestic support as it is a strategic move. Does it make it right, of course not and as I said wankfester warmongering is a crime against humanity

The point I am making is that there is more to this than appears on the surface, any attempt to present a viewpoint other than Putin bad man runs the risk of being called an apologist or a communist. Group think may make people feel safe but its anything but safe. Remember when Clinton bombed Europe? 

 

[idontwan2know]

wrong. eliminating Putin is a big upside.

I wouldn't count my chickens on that one.

Putin is more likely to be deposed by a conservative demagogue who criticizes Putin for being incompetent and weak in his mission of restoring the glory of the Russian Empire than a Europe loving peacenik.

 

[hasher]

I wouldn't count my chickens on that one.

Putin is more likely to be deposed by a conservative demagogue who criticizes Putin for being incompetent and weak in his mission of restoring the glory of the Russian Empire than a Europe loving peacenik.

I'd put him in the dust ban of history.

 

[enigmatically2]

The folks of, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and, Tibet might not agree.

Nor would Japan, India, Vietnam or Bhutan

 

[Guest]

The problem is this- the devil you know vs the devil you dont. Putin is predictable, what comes after we dont know but Europe has fascism on the rise and as we can see in the US recently, its has legs there too.

The last thing we need is more nutters with the nuclear codes

 

[Rasputin22]

You do realise the 'free world' as you put it, is a small minority of the whole world? Yet we seem to think we have the right to force this 'freedom' onto others, by waging war if necessary.

The only reason other countries haven't stepped in is because they don't have the stomach for it. There would be a huge backlash if the citizens of those countries had to go without something. The nuke threat is just a nice excuse.

"Hey Ukraine, good going. We would love to join you but Putin might use a nuke on us."

"Really, he might use one on us, but we are fighting anyway."

"Yeah, but you know, we are different."

I am afraid that this meme calls it like it is for the most part...

 

[Stingray~]

Nor would Japan, India, Vietnam or Bhutan

Oh c’mon let’s be serious  HK was not too pretty but it was basically a negotiated deal. Taiwan would have to be too, some day way down the line. 

 

[hasher]

Oh c’mon let’s be serious  HK was not too pretty but it was basically a negotiated deal. Taiwan would have to be too, some day way down the line. 

I do believe a free world is worth fighting for.  Ask the dead.

 

[Guest]

Both were horrific but this war is even worse. It..... SUCKS!

Ukraine is the biggest and most populous country in Europe - Geez.

Putins biggest crime as far as the MSM is concerned, they invaded a "white" country, now if he invaded a trumpian shithole no one would care- they would pretend too, but nah not really.