Ukraine
- Thread starter dogwatch
- Start date
HK was not too pretty but it was basically a negotiated deal.
dogwatch
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #562
Ludicrous. The EU has the values of a rules based system. Russia has never, at any point, had rule of law. It works, from top to bottom, through personal power and the threat of violence. I had an ex-boss who tried to integrate a Russian industry into international systems. It turned out he was basically dealing with a state supported organised crime syndicate. You can’t deal with them without becoming like them. If you want to keep your soul, it is best not to try.
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Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
This is correct. I had an uncle who ran a business that expanded into Europe and from there into East Germany and from there into Russia. The Russian part sputtered along, as soon as it started making money the various aparatchiks showed up to claim their cut, just like a Mafia shakedown. He folded it shortly after Putin took over, telling his investors they were lucky to get out of it whole.
- DSK
MR.CLEAN
Moderator
- Moderator
- #564
Russia has either been conquered or conquerors for most of a millenium, they don’t do “friends” well, and their world view has fundamental differences to the rest of the western nations. This is very deeply engrained, and I doubt that touchy feely lovey in the 90s would have done much to change things in the long run. Past practice being the best predictor of future action and all.
estarzinger
Super Anarchist
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you could have perhaps said the same about the germans at one point.
The marshall plan approach DID make make a significant difference in how they reacted to failure ww1 vs ww2.
I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree on this. The fall of the USSR was a cataclysmic and traumatic enough experience that I believe there was a one-time window to make a difference despite/overcoming the history you allude to. I was told this straight out by people there who could have made a difference. A window which we did not take and instead let the mob take over. There were factory managers literally waiting in their offices for western managers to come and show them how it was done (because that is what they would have done if they had won the cold war), and instead we left them to sit alone and the mob grabbed them.
Perhaps it would not have worked, but we don't know and just debate it on the internet because we did not even try.
edit: and btw treating with respect not equal to lovey dovey, you should know that
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dogwatch
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #566
Here is a bit of a chicken-feed story but amusing in its way. I knew a highly educated Russian translator, a very moral person. In the dying days of the USSR, she was minding a group in the bar of the Hotel Cosmos, which at the time was the hotel in Moscow for western visitors. It was full of obvious prostitutes, milling about and discomforting her group. She spotted a couple of uniformed police and headed towards them to ask them to disperse them when she realised the women were actually queueing up, entirely openly, to pay the police their protection money.
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We spent a few days in a nominally high-end hotel in St. Petersburg during a Volvo Race stopover. A group of us would gather in the lobby for drinks at the end of the workday. The prostitutes would wander through the lobby looking for customers, usually with a minder lurking in the background.
Subtle they were not.
We called them "Svetlanas". Not sure I ever saw one snag a customer, but with all the overseas businessmen there, they probably did OK.
Rennmaus
Super Anarchist
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idontwan2know
Super Anarchist
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You said eliminating Putin is a big upside.
My point that was what comes after Putin may be worse.
Keith
Super Anarchist
Wrong.
NATO is a defense force only.
NATO has not invaded anyone.
NATO is a group of countries working together.
Poutines Russia is the aggressor here, nothing more nothing less.
Poutine fears the freedom of a happy and free democracy on his border.
idontwan2know
Super Anarchist
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Actually, I think he has been fairly predictable until recently, you just have to try and put yourself in the mindset of a person who is completely amoral and has two priorities: maintaining personal power and restoring the Russian empire. Within those confines he's been remarkably pragmatic until this Ukraine invasion, which is such a massive blunder that even his own military/intelligence people didn't think he'd ever actually do it.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
I don't think that Putin fears "freedom," he fears loss of power to a more free and open system competing against his system. When you genuinely believe in the heirarchy of "some people are better than others" then the idea of the people of a border country choosing to reject Russian hegemony and economic dominance is a tremendous insult. In a way, it is also a threat that more and more people will choose this.
So, it is a perfectly logical step to take that choice away from the people, by force if necessary.
The exact same kind of thinking is gaining ground in the US.
The problem with depending on The Big Lie as a key part of your wealth/power. Eventually, all Big Liars get caught in the trap of believing their own bullshit.
- DSK
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
for sure this view is held by many Russian experts. a window was open. but now it's no more than an intellectual discussion - bombs are falling.
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floater
Super Duper Anarchist
alright then. I see where you stand. alongside the murdering sociopath.
I'm quite content to take that risk.
idontwan2know
Super Anarchist
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Good lord man, calm down.
I am not alongside the murdering sociopath and would be happy if one of his generals put a bullet in the back of his brain.
But this is the real world not the movies ,and you have to consider all possible outcomes.
estarzinger
Super Anarchist
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"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
interesting - and this sounds alot like the Ukrainian fighters rn: How are the Russians fighting, I ask. "They fight like stupid animals," says Reaper. "They fight like it's 1941 - they have no manoeuvrability, they just come to the front and that's all. They have a lot of people, a lot of tanks, a lot of vehicles, but we are fighting for our land, and we are protecting our families. it doesn't matter how they fight because we fight like lions and they won't win." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60693166
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Found that interesting too, the first detailed account I have read from the 'front lines' of the resistance. Thnx
Kiwing
Super Anarchist
Is it blind hope or is there some rational to it? But I think Ukraine will win. The more they resist the more the world wants to and finds a way to help. But it is their unimaginable determination which is the convincing factor. I think even nuclear weapons would not make a difference? It will be a long and horrible war.
What will Putin's out be?
What will Putin's out be?
