Ukraine

[Stingray~]

From freezing, and now almost-empty Kherson, 'The Russians said they came to liberate us. To liberate us from what, from the good lives we had before?'

 

[Monkey]

Read history, it aint woke and btw no state needs to give you or me excuses to act.

"During the Iraq war, the Bush administration justified its pre-emptive military strike against Iraq on grounds of national security. The strike, carried out under the administration's National Security Strategy, asserts the right of the USA to take unilateral military action against rogue states and terrorist organizations so as to prevent or mitigate a presumed attack by such nations or organizations against the United States."

Who exactly is a rogue state or terrorist organization? That its purely determined by the perceived threat.

There are plenty of papers online that discuss the negative aspects of this doctrine but might is right out in the real world.

Russia had zero justification. Period.

 

[motorbike]

Thank you. It's easy when faced with 2 Russian trolls. So here goes another: Putin, your boys are taking a hell of a beating out there.

So motorbike, presumably you are another expat who ran away from Russia because everything is so rosy over there? At least you'll be spared the Russian economy collapsing (the thing that russian propagandists claim is happening in the west but us actually happening in Rus

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/26/russia-war-economy-military-supply/

Is this where you liberals have got to, any challenge of the narrative no matter how mild is framed into strawman ad hominems?

At no point have I said that I support one side or another, even that is an affront because your liberal values demand that I do. What I have said is that wars happen between states end of story, my personal opinion is that UKR will not win this. That is obviously a big problem for you that I do not conform to your groupthink. This thread has more in common with sports fans from the same team in a bar celebrating before full time. It may be fun but nothing they do is going to alter the outcome. (unless they enter the field which no one here is going to do)

 

[motorbike]

Russia had zero justification. Period.

I cant argue with that, but it does raise a question; does a state need justification to wage a war? If you view war as an extension of the political process then it's goal is to assert your position over the opposition. Thats the bit I am interested in and also how ineffective the West has been given our supposed superiority in everything and now broken Russia is.

 

[Monkey]

Is this where you liberals have got to, any challenge of the narrative no matter how mild is framed into strawman ad hominems?

At no point have I said that support one side or another, even that is an affront because your liberal values demand that I do. What I have said is that wars happen between states end of story, my personal opinion is that UKR will not win this. That is obviously a big problem for you that I do not conform to your groupthink. This thread has more in common with sports fans from the same team in a bar celebrating before full time. It may be fun but nothing they do is going to alter the outcome.

I love how you idiots think this is a “liberal” thing. I hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of us conservatives who think the idiots who buy into Trump or Tucker’s bullshit are a fucking embarrassment. You’re spouting out their talking points like a well trained little poodle.

 

[Rain Man]

I cant argue with that, but it does raise a question; does a state need justification to wage a war? If you view war as an extension of the political process then it's goal is to assert your position over the opposition. Thats the bit I am interested in and also how ineffective the West has been given our supposed superiority in everything and now broken Russia is.

This is somewhat of an overstatement. Supply of arms has allowed Ukraine to significantly reduce Russia's territorial gains.

Having said that, there is truth in this. The West could be doing so much more. It is the same thing as climate change - collective apathy or inertia. Our children don't bother investing in or planning for the future because they believe we've fucked up the world so badly there may not be one. Yet we don't do anything to fix the problems. We deserve what we are about to get, but they don't.

It does not help that the right wing in the US - and let's face it, as Sanna Marin pointed out, without the US the Ukraine would have lost already - sides with Russia in many cases.

 

[Steam Flyer]

...
At no point have I said that I support one side or another...

Perhaps, but you have also done nothing but spout a lot of pro-Putin fiction.

 

[Mark_K]

Is this where you liberals have got to, any challenge of the narrative no matter how mild is framed into strawman ad hominems?

At no point have I said that I support one side or another, even that is an affront because your liberal values demand that I do. What I have said is that wars happen between states end of story, my personal opinion is that UKR will not win this. That is obviously a big problem for you that I do not conform to your groupthink. This thread has more in common with sports fans from the same team in a bar celebrating before full time. It may be fun but nothing they do is going to alter the outcome. (unless they enter the field which no one here is going to do)

Your statement Ukraine will not "win" this indicates you suffer from the same sports-thought disorder. This stuff is not anywhere near as simple. What "win" means in this mess can be a lot of things for both parties, and a negotiated settlements can make both sides winners and losers at the same time in matters of war.

 

[pusslicker]

Is this where you liberals have got to, any challenge of the narrative no matter how mild is framed into strawman ad hominems?

At no point have I said that I support one side or another, even that is an affront because your liberal values demand that I do. What I have said is that wars happen between states end of story, my personal opinion is that UKR will not win this. That is obviously a big problem for you that I do not conform to your groupthink. This thread has more in common with sports fans from the same team in a bar celebrating before full time. It may be fun but nothing they do is going to alter the outcome. (unless they enter the field which no one here is going to do)

When you use the term "you liberals" it kind of makes it clear as to which team you are support. There is no demand that you reveal what side you support because you already have. It's harder to figure what sock this is.

 

[LeoV]

Half of the Russian army is gone, buried and destroyed. Yeah, they will win.

 

[Stingray~]

Good video

 

[barfy]

 

[motorbike]

Your statement Ukraine will not "win" this indicates you suffer from the same sports-thought disorder. This stuff is not anywhere near as simple. What "win" means in this mess can be a lot of things for both parties, and a negotiated settlements can make both sides winners and losers at the same time in matters of war.

You raise a good point, what does win mean? Eventually both sides will come to an agreement and both will claim to have "won" unfortunately there are no winners here but a lot of losers. The citizens of UKR in other words who take the brunt of this until an agreement is reached.

 

[Rain Man]

You raise a good point, what does win mean? Eventually both sides will come to an agreement and both will claim to have "won" unfortunately there are no winners here but a lot of losers. The citizens of UKR in other words who take the brunt of this until an agreement is reached.

Regardless of the outcome, Russia is now an international pariah and will no longer be a trusted or respected member of the international community, if they ever were. I will no longer purchase Russian products or associate with Russians who support the war, or stood by and did nothing. I suspect there are millions more who think the same. It will be a long time before Russian athletes are competing in international sport - we have seen our last Russian Grand Prix, for example. More importantly, they will no longer be able to sell energy to Europe in the volume they did in the past, the EU has learned the lesson on dependence on an unreliable supplier.

While Ukraine is taking significant damage now, they can and will rebuild, because the West will help. The damage to Russia's economy and international reputation will take generations to repair, and they will have to do it without help from the West. Unless democracy comes to Russia, their reputation is permanently damaged.

Moreover, there is no solution without Ukraine in NATO going forward. The irony is Russia asking for security guarantees. What good were the security guarantees Russia gave Ukraine?

 

[chesirecat]

Regardless of the outcome, Russia is now an international pariah and will no longer be a trusted or respected member of the international community, if they ever were. I will no longer purchase Russian products or associate with Russians who support the war, or stood by and did nothing. I suspect there are millions more who think the same. It will be a long time before Russian athletes are competing in international sport - we have seen our last Russian Grand Prix, for example. More importantly, they will no longer be able to sell energy to Europe in the volume they did in the past, the EU has learned the lesson on dependence on an unreliable supplier.

While Ukraine is taking significant damage now, they can and will rebuild, because the West will help. The damage to Russia's economy and international reputation will take generations to repair, and they will have to do it without help from the West. Unless democracy comes to Russia, their reputation is permanently damaged.

Moreover, there is no solution without Ukraine in NATO going forward. The irony is Russia asking for security guarantees. What good were the security guarantees Russia gave Ukraine?

Exactly. Its worthwhile recapping this below. The Baltic states have been warning for some time and even now Macron doesn't seem to understand

Estonian Counter Intelligence

"As they admit: „You can’t beat Russia with reason. . . Human life has no value."

"Indeed, how could Russia have any reckoning when the country has never been held responsible? The Nazis temporarily rose to the top of the cruelty ranking during the Second World War, which has caused people to forget Russia’s atrocities.
They’ve never been held accountable,“ Sinisalu says. „And that has made them feel invincible.“

Our assessments of Russia haven’t changed in the last 30 years,“ says Mežviets. The chief analysis is this: Russia wishes to regain its status as an empire by any means.
„To them, there are no states, only zones and territories,“ Peeter explains. Russia sees itself as being surrounded by vassals and ancillaries – there is no third option.
They only respect force,“ says Jauniškis, „and if you answer theirs with your own, then you might even become friends.“

. . . .diplomacy is a sign of weakness,

https://ekspress.delfi.ee/artikkel/...officers-speak-candidly-about-russian-cruelty

 

[LeoV]

Macron's words are a sign of times. Before it was Ukraine needed security, now M said Russia will need it in the future. That is how weak Russia apparently is now.

 

[enigmatically2]

@motorbike you claim to be offering an alternative reasoned view. Which is fine. Can we ask, do you agree that
1) UKr was an internationally recognised state with borders that included Donetsk, Crimea etc, with a democratically elected government that had no plans to invade Russia or anyone else.
2) That Russia's invasion is thus an illegal act of war.
3) that act and the deliberate bombing of civilians in various cities constitute war crimes and thus Putin, his generals and assorted others should be tried in the Hague?

 

[bfloyd4445]

Is this where you liberals have got to, any challenge of the narrative no matter how mild is framed into strawman ad hominems?

At no point have I said that I support one side or another, even that is an affront because your liberal values demand that I do. What I have said is that wars happen between states end of story, my personal opinion is that UKR will not win this. That is obviously a big problem for you that I do not conform to your groupthink. This thread has more in common with sports fans from the same team in a bar celebrating before full time. It may be fun but nothing they do is going to alter the outcome. (unless they enter the field which no one here is going to do)

Regardless of the outcome, Russia is now an international pariah and will no longer be a trusted or respected member of the international community, if they ever were. I will no longer purchase Russian products or associate with Russians who support the war, or stood by and did nothing. I suspect there are millions more who think the same. It will be a long time before Russian athletes are competing in international sport - we have seen our last Russian Grand Prix, for example. More importantly, they will no longer be able to sell energy to Europe in the volume they did in the past, the EU has learned the lesson on dependence on an unreliable supplier.

While Ukraine is taking significant damage now, they can and will rebuild, because the West will help. The damage to Russia's economy and international reputation will take generations to repair, and they will have to do it without help from the West. Unless democracy comes to Russia, their reputation is permanently damaged.

Moreover, there is no solution without Ukraine in NATO going forward. The irony is Russia asking for security guarantees. What good were the security guarantees Russia gave Ukraine?

This could end up with the russian military refusing to fight like what happened once before which led to the collapse of the USSR. Some of my customers are from the Ukraine and they seem adamant about remaining a sovereign nation without connections with Russia.

 

[Stingray~]

Regardless of the outcome, Russia is now an international pariah and will no longer be a trusted or respected member of the international community, if they ever were. I will no longer purchase Russian products or associate with Russians who support the war, or stood by and did nothing. I suspect there are millions more who think the same. It will be a long time before Russian athletes are competing in international sport - we have seen our last Russian Grand Prix, for example. More importantly, they will no longer be able to sell energy to Europe in the volume they did in the past, the EU has learned the lesson on dependence on an unreliable supplier.

While Ukraine is taking significant damage now, they can and will rebuild, because the West will help. The damage to Russia's economy and international reputation will take generations to repair, and they will have to do it without help from the West. Unless democracy comes to Russia, their reputation is permanently damaged.

Moreover, there is no solution without Ukraine in NATO going forward. The irony is Russia asking for security guarantees. What good were the security guarantees Russia gave Ukraine?

Agree with the general sentiment but just as I have been consistently concerned for the UKR population above all else, there is also a reason to be concerned for the RU population if/once the sanctions bite hard.

Ideally the retribution will get concentrated on the powerful, those directly implicated in ordering what is so clearly a War Crime.

 

[AnIdiot]

You raise a good point, what does win mean? Eventually both sides will come to an agreement and both will claim to have "won" unfortunately there are no winners here but a lot of losers.

It's pretty easy to see outcomes that might be called a "win" for NATO.
They involve minimising the risk of escalation and hence explain the reluctance to implement some things Ukraine has asked fo.