Ukraine

Horn Rock

Super Anarchist
3,253
1,807
Byron Bay
Cue the music....

FN3CwVlUcAAQm3A.jpg

 

accnick

Super Anarchist
4,042
2,967
'Surrender' and 'surrender' can be different things. The first could be the one that saves tens of thousands of precious lives, the second the one that makes RUS pay badly in the long-run. 
"Live free, or die."

The Ukrainians understand that. Remember, they were part of the Soviet Union, and have no desire to go back to being a vassal state.

That's a strong motivator.

Americans are spoiled, and seem to have forgotten that freedom isn't free.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

estarzinger

Super Anarchist
7,772
1,205
its fine being anti-war and all. but not when it comes to fighting the good fight. long live Ukraine.
You can be anti-war and also "fight the good fight" - like standing in front of tank or standing there and allowing yourself to be beaten by batons without flinching. Gandhi pacifism is actually quite difficult and dangerous when done full out, but also can be enormously effective in the modern media context. It is relatively rare that people have the fortitude to actually do this and to repeat it day after day.

The Ukrainians have been enormously impressive.  Both militarily, but also whoever is running their media operations is really excellent - they have continuously dominated the Western news cycle.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stingray~

Super Anarchist
13,638
3,778
PNW
"Live free, or die."

The Ukrainians understand that.
Sure, we all understand that admiral sentiment. I just think that we need to most care about helping those who want to live rather than die, to then hopefully return later to a free Ukraine and be able to regain and live it again. We need to help those who want it both ways. What's the real benefit in being killed instead, for most of the population - which is women and children and the elderly and etc? The highest priority we have should be saving them. Should they like males be being stopped at the borders too? Is being male make you a victim of discrimination here? What if you are male, but still just want the f out of the devastation for now?

As I said, Kyiv looks deserted. Reality bites. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stingray~

Super Anarchist
13,638
3,778
PNW
(Rtd) General McCaffrey, Wes Clark and others are saying the reason the RUS tanks have not yet moved into Kyiv is because they are just waiting for when the shelling and demolition ends. It...... Sucks! 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stingray~

Super Anarchist
13,638
3,778
PNW
A bit short on logic there again, Stinger. How exactly will Ukraine ever be 'free' again, if the Soviets win?
Some day. The (Western-backed) insurgency will be horrific to both sides but most 'experts' think RUS won't be able to survive it forever. 

Some also foresee the need for an eventual 'Marshall Plan' to rebuild UKR - and maybe RUS too if things change there. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

accnick

Super Anarchist
4,042
2,967
Sure, we all understand that admiral sentiment. I just think that we need to most care about helping those who want to live rather than die, to then hopefully return later to a free Ukraine and be able to regain and live it again. We need to help those who want it both ways. What's the real benefit in being killed instead, for most of the population - which is women and children and the elderly and etc? The highest priority we have should be saving them. Should they like males be being stopped at the borders too? Is being male make you a victim of discrimination here? What if you are male, but still just want the f out of the devastation for now?

As I said, Kyiv looks deserted. Reality bites. 
What would you have done after the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941? We instituted a draft, just as Ukraine has effectively introduced conscription by preventing adult males from leaving the country.

Being married didn't get you out of the draft in WW2. You didn't get to say "I'd rather live to fight some other day." If you volunteered or were called, you went.

"We need to help those who want it both ways?"

"Is being male make you a victim of discrimination here? What if your are male, but just want the f out of the devastation for now?"

That would have gone over well at your draft board in Hawaii in early 1942, or in England in 1940.

"Existential struggle" is more than abstract to Ukrainians right now.

I am truly disappointed and appalled at your attitude about this.

 

Gissie

Super Anarchist
6,877
1,887
What would you have done after the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941? We instituted a draft, just as Ukraine has effectively introduced conscription by preventing adult males from leaving the country.

Being married didn't get you out of the draft in WW2. You didn't get to say "I'd rather live to fight some other day." If you volunteered or were called, you went.

"We need to help those who want it both ways?"

"Is being male make you a victim of discrimination here? What if your are male, but just want the f out of the devastation for now?"

That would have gone over well at your draft board in Hawaii in early 1942, or in England in 1940.

"Existential struggle" is more than abstract to Ukrainians right now.

I am truly disappointed and appalled at your attitude about this.
But surely in this modern world of equality it should not be limited to males, let alone young ones. 

Then there are the males that have successfully confronted their toxic masculinity and banished it from their lives. How can you now ask them to fetch it back and become predators again. What will this do to their fragile self worth. 

It is nowhere as simple as you make out. 

 

chesirecat

Super Anarchist
1,461
870
Shoebox on M'way
Apparently RU has asked China for MRE's

Not sure if its an improvement on their existing rations;  rotten onions, carrots and black potatoes.




 
Last edited by a moderator:

enigmatically2

Super Anarchist
4,723
2,437
Earth
Apparently RU has asked China for MRE's

Not sure if its an improvement on their existing rations;  rotten onions, carrots and black potatoes.
You have to be careful with these assessments because of vastly different cultural norms. That didn't look that appetising to me but may be fine for a typical Chinese soldier. But those norms also mean that using another cultures rations can be problematic.

Can you imagine for example the British army being given a ration pack with no tea or coffee?

The Russians do drink black tea and their MREs normally contain some. So the absence of that could be surprisingly significant. I would suspect that Russia's army is drawn from so many cultures that nothing would satisfy all, but many would object to those Chinese rations.

But if they have asked China for rations it does suggest how far through the war-stores they are. WIth little movement they will have exhausted all they can loot and pillage like an army of locusts. Unlike locusts they can't move- unless of course they retreat.

This is where all the truisms about "amateurs talking strategy, professionals talking logistics"; or "armies marching on their stomachs" start to really hit

 

idontwan2know

Super Anarchist
3,083
228
Not a military expert, but I think this threatened encirclement of Ukraine’s eastern forces is a fantasy of guys who draw red lines on maps more than an urgent reality. 

As we have seen in countless recent conflicts, because you have driven twenty miles down a highway doesn’t come close to meaning you control all the territory between that highway and the next well enough to deny passage of the enemy. Hell, it doesn’t even mean that you control all twenty miles you’ve driven down. 
 

The Russian army that cannot encircle Kyiv  less than 100 miles from the Russian border cannot conduct an encirclement of hundreds of square miles in central Ukraine in any real way. At least not in the short-medium term. 

 

enigmatically2

Super Anarchist
4,723
2,437
Earth
You don't need complete control to make the encirclement meaningful. If you can control the crossroads and any railway lines (which have been quite significant in this conflict) then you can cut off re-supply (re-supply by air is always problematic and not possible here.

So it was a very real risk, and still exists, albeit less than it was..

Seems like Ukraine are about to get a whole load of new anti-air systems - including some old Soviet systems from the eastern NATO members, but also some Starstreak from UK- those have much bigger range than Stingers and hopefully will give the Russians even more headaches

 
Top