Ukraine

[Mambo Kings]

Evidently, what they mean when they say that isn't what you are presuming they mean. You've written over a thousand words without mentioning Stepan Bandera, how he collaborated with the Nazis during WWII and why a significant minority of western Ukrainians continue to regard him as a national hero. It is unpleasant to contemplate this while we invest emotionally and financially in UKR but it is a fact.

Equally, bending words out of any rational and historical meaning is hardly unique to Russia. Not a week goes by without some western conservative politician or commentator frothing about "cultural Marxism", as though the phrase had some meaning other than "stuff I don't like". Similarly, at one level, "Nazism" is just "stuff Russian nationalists don't like". In both cases, a boo-word is linked to a set of boo-ideas and the speaker and audience experience a warm glow of pseudo-sophistication. Unfortunately Russia hasn't yet cornered the market in lazy thinking.

Hello Dog,

I was careful to include the role of the OUN during the WW2 and the holocaust. Bandera was one of the leaders of the OUN, and a long post would have got longer if I had gone through each one. Bandera did not participate directly in holocaust atrocities because he was interred by the Germans by then, but he would not have disapproved, he was antisemitic and despised Poles. Bandera was a unsavory person but he was also complicated. When the OUN split into the OUNB and OUNM, the OUNB initially supported an independent Ukraine allied with Nazi Germany with Hitler as a special, almost spritual mentor. Then the OUNB split again and Bandera faction fell out with Germany and the Nazi party. Bandera was imprisoned by the Germans . His post war history gets more complicated because he was sponsored by the British ( MI6) for a significant period and then the Americans who both seemed to be able to overlook his revolting antisemitism and preference for an authoritarian state, because they were so attracted to his fiery anti-soviet Russia rhetoric and his urging for a violent independence movement in Ukraine. He was not really Ukrainian. He was one of those damaged goods that emerged from the break up of the Austro-Hungarian empire poisoned by antisemitism and hatred of slavs. Another one was Adolf Hitler.

However my main point was that the contemporary supporters of an independent Ukraine with closer ties to Western Europe are not descendants of the OUN. Russia is taking a small truth and layering a large lie on top. An ugly facist who was killed in 1956 advocated for an independent Ukraine, therefore everyone who supports an independent Ukraine in 2023 is also a facist.

The Nazis built the autobahns in Germany, but everyone who support an infrastructure bill in 2023 to construct new highways are not necessarily Nazis.

In particular the Zelensky regime and the Servant of the People party are not a far right wing party advocating a totalitarian ideology, the annihilation of the Jews, and expansionist policy to invade neighboring lands which they believe rightfully belong to them. Unfortunately they have a neighbor to the East which does hold some of those views.

 

[LeoV]

Given the time it will take for newly pledged equipment to have an effect, it must be understood that the next few months of fighting are going to be hard.

Basically Russia is adopting what Germany did in early 1918. It knows tanks and other offensive material are arriving to help Ukraine so they have a small opportunity to use their greater numbers and higher firing rate of artillery and mortars in battles they pick.

This is why the delay in US and EU material send to Ukraine after Russia mobilized 300 k man in November is going to be costly for Ukraine.
At least the material should be prepared just in case, and training could have been done sooner. Training and setting up supplies takes away a lot of man that could have been fighting earlier.

 

[accnick]

Kiwing's link worked for me, Stinger. Good original post. Thanks.

Thanks, Kiwing. Yes. I've viewed it. Thanks for the additional link. It certainly backs up my original thinking about Putin's imperialist ambitions. Also, how close America sailed to wind by almost electing, Trump for a second term. That was a lucky escape for them and for the West.

We still may have to escape that problem one more time, believe it or not. It is a very real risk.

 

[dogwatch]

In particular the Zelensky regime and the Servant of the People party are not a far right wing party advocating a totalitarian ideology, the annihilation of the Jews, and expansionist policy to invade neighboring lands which they believe rightfully belong to them.

Other than the two usual suspects, I doubt anyone here thinks they are and therefore, sorry, that doesn't really interest me. What does is why RUS propagandist use the "F" word, why it looks like most of the RUS population buy into it and what they actually mean by it. Obviously, it is not literal.

 

[Dervish]

Tank cannons fire two primary types of ammunition. The first is “High Velocity Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot” which is a big steel (or DU) arrow.

The second type is called HEAT in the U.S. Army. High Explosive Anti Tank. It uses a shaped charge to create a plasma stream that melts the armor and creates spalling. ATGM’s also used shaped charge warheads.

To defeat kinetic energy rounds like HVAPDS, you need a hard shell and a lot of mass. To defeat HEAT rounds you need inflammable materials like ceramics. MBT’s have composite armor to defeat both.

 

[Dervish]

Because of the threat of ATGM’s an additional layer is added. Called ERA for Explosive Reactive Armor, this armor explodes on contact to disrupt the plasma stream.

The most advanced ATGM’s defeat this in two ways. One is to target areas that don’t have ERA - like the top of a turret.

The other is to have a two stage warhead. The first (small) stage kicks off the ERA. The secondary charge punches through the armor plate.

 

[dogwatch]

How do you decide which to fire?

 

[Steam Flyer]

Most of the time, outside academic circles, "fascist" and "Nazi" are just words intended to make you hate the target. They are non-specific insults, supposedly so horrible they cannot be questioned.

 

[Steam Flyer]

How do you decide which to fire?

If your first round doesn't work, try the other type?

 

[Mambo Kings]

Other than the two usual suspects, I doubt anyone here thinks they are and therefore, sorry, that doesn't really interest me. What does is why RUS propagandist use the "F" word, why it looks like most of the RUS population buy into it and what they actually mean by it. Obviously, it is not literal.

The Russian propagandists go a bit further than using the word "fascist". They also use words like Nazi, the "new Adolf Hitler" and the Fourth Reich. The meaning is all the same .
I do not have a good sense of what proportion of the Russian population buys into it. I think the reasons the Putin regime uses the terminology could include the following:

• The last time Russia faced an existentialist threat on its Western borders was when Nazi Germany invaded Russia. Putin has made it clear that he views Ukraine falling into the NATO sphere as an existential threat and wants Russia to oppose this threat with every fiber of their being, just like they did in WW2.
• Germany is on the side of the Ukrainian "separatists". Possibly this reminds Russians of what they learnt in school about German allies. More likely it shames the German and gives cause for hesitation.
• Propaganda works best when you start with a small truth and turn it into a big lie. "Russia is taking a small truth and layering a large lie on top. An ugly fascist who was killed in 1956 advocated for an independent Ukraine, therefore everyone who supports an independent Ukraine in 2023 is also a fascist."

It is the last point that I wanted to explore, to break off from daily battlefield reports and assess connections between the Ukrainian fascist movements between 1930 and 1950 and connections with modern day Ukrainian independence.

I will caution with one observation. Theaters of war oft attract unsavory allies. When the USA invaded Iraq and "liberated" Afghanistan, it attracted all manner of anti-American militia from all around the world by providing a battlefield where you could kill Americans. Eastern Ukraine provides a battlefield where you can kill Russians and Ukraine does not have the luxury of saying No. There are fascist anti-soviet groups who will likely display OUN symbols. Their first language might be German, Ukrainian, Rumanian or even Polish but they hate Russia. There are Islamic/Chechen groups who despise what Russia did and the puppet regime. They will come to Eastern Ukraine to kill Russians . They do not represent what the Zalensky government stands for and do not represent what a post war independent Ukraine will look like. In the meantime, be careful with your donations to militias with You Tube accounts. Some of them dont stand up to close examination.

 

[slug zitski]

Nazis

Your gang

 

[dogwatch]

I do not have a good sense of what proportion of the Russian population buys into it.

It is hard to be sure but I've watched a lot of western-made vox-pops from RUS which lead me to believe the Putin propaganda line is widely believed. You do, of course, need to be pretty brave to go on record saying otherwise in RUS. However I also know of UKR refugees in the UK who are firmly pro-Putin, with nothing to fear from what they say. Strange but true. Mostly of an older generation and from the east of UKR.

 

[enigmatically2]

Not messing around. Good

 

[Ishmael]

There is no link that works for me. I'l try later with a VPN.

This link works for me in Canada.

 

[Bristol-Cruiser]

This link works for me in Canada.

Frontline is a one hour show that is only a chunk of it. Broadcast is Tuesday evening. Frontline is typically very well-done.

 

[d'ranger]

As a long time supporter of NPR and PBS I have found Frontline to always be accurate and informative. Not enjoyable as the topics, like this one are not pleasant.

 

[Rennmaus]

This link works for me in Canada.

It worked for me with a VPN set to the USA. Here is another link that should work without:

 

[Ishmael]

Frontline is a one hour show that is only a chunk of it. Broadcast is Tuesday evening. Frontline is typically very well-done.

I hadn't noticed it was just a trailer. The full show is probably going to hit YouTube after tonight's premiere on PBS.
Edit: Rennmaus' link works.

 

[Kiwing]

That Frontline Doco "Putin and the Presidents" is a must watch if you are to understand Putin and Biden's actions.
I wonder why the US is slowly uping the anti? Is it;
1) to suck Russia dry of it's ability to fight for a long time? Or,
2) not to be seen as esculating the defense too much.

Is China watching hoping the US is losing it's ability and desire to fight for Taiwan?

 

[Stingray~]

That Frontline Doco "Putin and the Presidents" is a must watch if you are to understand Putin and Biden's actions.
I wonder why the US is slowly uping the anti? Is it;
1) to suck Russia dry of it's ability to fight for a long time? Or,
2) not to be seen as esculating the defense too much.

^bold mine but if 'slow' is the emphasis of your question then my take on the speed of support is that it has actually not been that slow. Quite the contrary.

$Billions in support already from not just the US but also from others including Germany - who despite the recent tanks debate has been and still is contributing enormous support also in humanitarian aid including tens of thousands of portable generators.

I doubt the US wants the war to drag out for the goal of slowly degrading RU's military ground power to the point it becomes worthless but I suppose that is a goal regardless the timeline, given comments by Austin shortly after the invasion happened.