Ukraine

floater

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Can't find the link, but there was a good article from someone interpreting the evolution of coverage on RT, which is a good barometer for what the Kremlin thinking is.
RT a good barometer for what the Kremlin is thinking? so absurd, not even sure where to begin. but perhaps some expert commentary can provide insight.

e0b04b60-b38a-4c76-9d50-a521aa944f3b_1440x810.png


article: https://miburo.substack.com/p/ukraine-russian-propaganda-three?s=r

 
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Stingray~

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Found the article. While nothing RT says can be taken at face value, there's a lot to be learned by examining what RT wants others to believe. That's the value.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/17/putin-russia-state-tv-news-00018304
They suggest that Putin's speeches broadcast by RT have evolved into promoting less ambitious goals - Crimea and such in the latest ones instead of Kyiv. Good article, let's hope the Politico author is reading the tea leaves correctly.

 
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pusslicker

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They suggest that Putin's speeches broadcast by RT have evolved into promoting less ambitious goals - Crimea and such in the latest ones instead of Kyiv. Good article, let's hope the Politico author is reading the tea leaves correctly.
This was kind of his MO with Georgia though. Take some bits beyond the disputed areas and then pull back to those areas. They got within 35 km of Tbilisi, which is in the southern part of Georgia before pulling back. The Georgians got their asses kicked and Bush sold them out. I think that is what the plan maybe was until the Ukrainians started fucking them up and the west showed a spine.

 

floater

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Found the article. While nothing RT says can be taken at face value, there's a lot to be learned by examining what RT wants others to believe. That's the value.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/17/putin-russia-state-tv-news-00018304
Exactly. note how this is based upon Russian TV. Broadcast in Russia. in Russian. do you speak Russian?

The article I posted above - also written by experts - divides Kremlin messaging into four categories: inside Russia, Russian diaspora, Ukraine, and the West. 

so. your point is exactly, what? that the casual consumer of english language RT will somehow come out smarter at the end? or that reading an analysis of Russian propaganda - written by experts - actually does make sense?

 
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dogwatch

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Zelenskyy bans opposition parties and suspends all private TV stations. Not great optics, IMO. 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-zelensky-s-party-crackdown-his-first-mistake-

For those without much interest in British politics, the Spectator is a right-wing journal closely aligned to the Conservative party. Boris Johnson is an ex-editor. Its columns frequently fore-shadow policy announcements by the present government.

 
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d'ranger

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Zelenskyy bans opposition parties and suspends all private TV stations. Not great optics, IMO. 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-zelensky-s-party-crackdown-his-first-mistake-

For those without much interest in British politics, the Spectator is a right-wing journal closely aligned to the Conservative party. Boris Johnson is an ex-editor. Its columns frequently fore-shadow policy announcements by the present government.
On the way home from sailing yesterday NPR interviewed the head of the Ukraine Opposition party who admitted they were pro Russian and while he didn't like the alternative voices being shut down he said he understood why it was necessary.  So I think I will go with that guy.

 

dogwatch

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So if they are pro-Russian they are presumably pro-Putin, pro-authoritarian and precisely opposed to the values which we would like to think we are supporting. Therefore  I don't think I will go with that guy.

Government suppression of any alternative news by Putin has been widely criticised and rightly so. Zelenskyy has done exactly the same.

 
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d'ranger

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So if they are pro-Russian they are presumably pro-Putin, pro-authoritarian and precisely opposed to the values which we would like to think we are supporting. Therefore  I don't think I will go with that guy.

Government suppression of any alternative news by Putin has been widely criticised and rightly so. Zelenskyy has done exactly the same.
Whataboutism.  When the enemy is literally at your door you don't give him a voice.  Putin has and is oppressing his own citizens and killing Ukraine civilians without cause.  Stating that he and Zelensky have anything in common is pathetic and disingenuous.  Putin is hiding, Zelensky is doing everything to save his country so when the opposition party states they understand and don't oppose it not sure how anyone in the cheap seats really has something to counter with.

but you do you.

 

dogwatch

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I don't pick up a pistol and fire at my own foot, as Zelenskyy has done here. But since you want to personalise disagreement, I'm out with you.

 
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idontwan2know

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Exactly. note how this is based upon Russian TV. Broadcast in Russia. in Russian. do you speak Russian?

The article I posted above - also written by experts - divides Kremlin messaging into four categories: inside Russia, Russian diaspora, Ukraine, and the West. 

so. your point is exactly, what? that the casual consumer of english language RT will somehow come out smarter at the end? or that reading an analysis of Russian propaganda - written by experts - actually does make sense?


The first post that you responded to so negatively was literally referencing the same article which you now seem to support as a source of information. I never said watching English RT was a good source of information. Your reading comprehension sucks, mate.

 
The perrenial mistake of protests. Pouring it down the sink does not help because  you've already paid for it. So it's just wasteful and harmful to environment.
1. Vodka isnt harmful to the environment.

2. I was being rhetorical. I dont own any Russian vodka to pour down the proverbial sink.

3. Protests are not about cost effectiveness or economic impact (those are called sanctions). Protests are about making a point of principle (and if possible) in a demonstrative and attention getting way.

So if I had a bottle of Russian vodka, I would have poured it down the sink.......and taken a video and posted it on facebook and instagram. 

 

floater

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The first post that you responded to so negatively was literally referencing the same article which you now seem to support as a source of information. I never said watching English RT was a good source of information. Your reading comprehension sucks, mate.
ok. my bad. I read that as you were searching for a link to RT (because that's what you said). And RT is not the right term for a Politico article analyzing Russian propaganda.

RT is Russia's international - foreign language - propaganda arm. And believe it or not - there actually are some sailors (or disingenuous boneheads, take your pick) around here who think they can wring meaning out of Russia's english language propaganda.

 
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idontwan2know

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an interesting map. who is surrounding who? 
My personal favorite of the bad maps was one that had the entirety of southern Ukraine in red as Russian controlled, but a bunch of small blue dots scattered throughout the red that marked Ukrainian counter offensives.

There's no such thing as a counteroffensive from within controlled territory. They never controlled it in the first place.

 

floater

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Whataboutism.  When the enemy is literally at your door you don't give him a voice.  Putin has and is oppressing his own citizens and killing Ukraine civilians without cause.  Stating that he and Zelensky have anything in common is pathetic and disingenuous.  Putin is hiding, Zelensky is doing everything to save his country so when the opposition party states they understand and don't oppose it not sure how anyone in the cheap seats really has something to counter with.

but you do you.
false interpretation, you say? 


 

d'ranger

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false interpretation, you say? 
Since I don't Twitter I couldn't read all the comments but the ones I did were less than complimentary of the goals of those parties.  Domestically the only comparison would be to give a pass on all those who foment violence and events like the Jan6 insurrection because of free speech.  Which many are doing their best because both sides matter? When your neighbor starts to bulldoze your house you should still allow him to voice his opinions?  Time and place matter.

Fuck Fascism, Putin and all his apologists.

 

idontwan2know

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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/ukraine-is-winning-war-russia/627121/

I think there's definitely some truth to this, but it's a little superficial and also has a distinct whiff of hawkish neocon bullshit.

  • I take it for granted that Ukraine is performing better on the battlefield but that's a long way from winning - the Confederacy performed better on the battlefield for most of the US Civil War, but it's debatable whether they were ever actually winning
  • As much info as is available online about this war, we are still looking through a keyhole. Russian losses are highly publicized by Ukrainian and western channels and almost nothing about Ukrainian losses except the images of civilian damage


    Russia is certainly taking heavy losses, but we have no real insight into men and material losses Ukraine is suffering

[*]What actually does "winning" look like for Ukraine?


  • Driving Russian forces back across the border through counterattacks? Not likely to ever happen
  • Maintaining the stalemate until it becomes politically untenable for Putin and a negotiated peace they can live with? Certainly could be happening
  • Maintaining the stalemate until Russia just gives up and goes home, allowing Ukraine to reclaim Crimea/Donbas/Luhansk and join Nato? Also seems unlikely, but not impossible


 
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