Ukraine
- Thread starter dogwatch
- Start date
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
d'ranger
Super Anarchist
- 30,166
- 5,153
From a writer on a forum I won't reveal here - Russians are leaving their dead in the field so they are at most listed as MIA or POWs. Soldiers are using personal phones to notify families. This week I sent more $$ to Ed Lada who has been organizing relief efforts in Poland. Fellow assholes in PA have raised some thousands to date - every penny going to actual relief there.
Nice.
I saw a segment about a solid effort being led primarily out of LA by an emigrant from UKR, they are using open source information to help guide people, cars and bus drivers to get the people safely to the Polish border, plus coordinating other people to provide help for when they arrive and provisions for the return trips into UKR. The drivers take backroads, some of them pretty rough.
estarzinger
Super Anarchist
- 7,774
- 1,209
Yes, exactly.
trying to see a path to a solution.
near term - we can hope for continued Ukrainian success - but I suspect the Russians will learn and adapt at least a little - seem to have upped their air tempo recently, pretty horrible slow motion against a frozen front in the East with reduced kinetic activity (because both sides just worn out) but continued conflict and shelling of cities
On the greater implications questions: what to do with the whole body of work on war crimes and Geneva Conventions? Seems fundamentally broken - especially in urban insurgency conflict. No-one is being held accountable except minor african's. Pretty much no-one (including the west) has demonstrated much moral commitment on these laws when push comes to shove.
Last edited by a moderator:
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
But isn't that just because we can't get the war-criminals?
if the Kremlin does explode because of this war - it would be fantastic to see some Russian generals delivered to the Hague.
if the Kremlin does explode because of this war - it would be fantastic to see some Russian generals delivered to the Hague.
estarzinger
Super Anarchist
- 7,774
- 1,209
I dont think so.
Seems more to me that the rules just don't reflect the realities of modern insurgency urban conflict well well.
The US has destroyed cities, and had C130 gunships orbiting and destroying hospitals. And the recent investigation suggested Delta Force intentionally evaded legal oversight of their air strikes. And in many (but certainly not all) of these 'bad cases' there were the 'best of intentions and procedures'. They just were not 'practical' in the urban insurgency context. Dropping a 500lb bomb on an apartment bock to kill one sniper unfortunately seems to the commanders in the field to (too often) be prudent.
And well, Dick Cheney is wandering around rather freely, as are any number of others leading wealthy respected existences who devised and approved and directed an optional very public torture program (after starting an optional war of aggression). As are various special forces members who (US, australian and UK) who have (apparently) committed documented war crimes.
there is little moral authority to prosecute the russian generals, if we don't police our own bad actors.
Last edited by a moderator:
War crimes are prosecuted. Soldiers testify thereby destroying their careers. Drumpf issued the pardons for political reasons.
The New York Times reported earlier that some senior officials, including Defense Secretary Mark Esper, oppose amnesty for the soldiers, noting that the move would undermine justice and serve as a bad example.
And this: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2012/05/13/war-tribunal-finds-bush-cheney-guilty-war-crimes
Last edited by a moderator:
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
just in case people don't understand the significance of this action (surrounding and cutting off an entire russian army to the NW of Kyiv) is "easily the most important military development in the war".
Last edited by a moderator:
idontwan2know
Super Anarchist
- 3,083
- 228
Depends on how many Russians are in that pocket. I have seen wildly varying stuff, from just a couple weak BTGs to a whole army. We shall see.
enigmatically2
Super Anarchist
The UK has investigated and prosecuted its own soldiers (and convicted them). I agree that some atrocities committed by Western nations have not been prosecuted. But that is no reason to ignore others.
estarzinger
Super Anarchist
- 7,774
- 1,209
Very few westerners have been held accountable and almost all of them 'grunts', pretty much none of a 'senior' status. Re the UK: The UK has a lamentable record of failing to prosecute war crimes committed by its nationals overseas. There has just been one prosecution of UK forces for war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 20 years.
But that was a secondary point. My main interest here is the relevance of the current 'war crimes' structure to modern warfare. IDK, I have just wondered if they need to be rethought or updated. By observation - It seems difficult to fight an urban insurgency without blowing up lots of civilian buildings (and that includes places of worship and medical services), and lots of claims of 'war crimes', even when your military generally has a law abiding culture and process. There is 'supposed to be' some proportionate calculations about these sorts of attacks, but again by observations, that does not seem a very practical rule in the heat of urban combat - do you drop a 500lb bomb on that apartment block or that mosque that seems to have RPG's coming from that corner room or not? I am not a fan of rule of law where the law is routinely skirted and only used against the loser and the less powerful.
On the other hand, a lot of the war crime's committed seem very avoidable and are still certainly valid practical law - so clearly it does not all need to be thrown out. I would really like to see the torture group actually held accountable, and similar for the special forces who kill civilians and pows indiscriminately. And yes, whatever russian ordered that strike on the shelter with 'children' written in big letters on both sides.
But i sense there is a problem, too many claims of relatively routine war crimes (by essentially all the players, even the presumptive 'good guys') and too few (especially at sr levels) held accountable. Again, IDK, thorny issue.
Last edited by a moderator:
Elegua
Generalissimo
The support that the West is giving Ukraine is a drop in the bucket compared to what modern warfare requires. They are in a position to slow the Russians, but unlikely to be able to defeat them. Right now the UA can't even mass its troops, so bloody quagmire and wholesale destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure and society it will be.
It's hard to argue that the act of killing is a moral one and trying to regulate and legislate war is a fraught exercise, but there is the concept of proportionality. The arguments that Russias actions are proportional gets a bit strained.
Taiwan is a very different case, legally, politically and culturally. The Chinese are more capable than the Russians both militarily and economically. The Taiwanese have built of one of the most progressive and liberal societies on earth, peacefully, out of a country (in everything but name) that was under martial law in the early 90's. The KMT emigrants that came after the war with strong ties to China are almost gone. Militarily Taiwan is much smaller and weaker than Ukraine. While Ukraine shows that adventurism/irredentist actions potentially can be more costly and risky than anticipated, you are dealing with very hardline views from the Chinese side that will view as the price extracted by the West as acceptable. No Chinese government has forgotten what happens when you give away territory and the current government is intent on fulfilling the furthest extent of the Qing dynasty. You could almost say that Putin may have gotten some ideas from this.
Last edited by a moderator:
chesirecat
Super Anarchist
chesirecat
Super Anarchist
Situation NW Kyiv. Falaise Pocket comes to mind.
Second image shows RU supply lines marked in green
On the map below, the line from flooded area and RU front line down around Kyiv aligns with Stalin's fortifications. Its also the line of a river and plenty of mud.
Source @HN_Schlottman
Second image shows RU supply lines marked in green
On the map below, the line from flooded area and RU front line down around Kyiv aligns with Stalin's fortifications. Its also the line of a river and plenty of mud.
Source @HN_Schlottman
Last edited by a moderator:
chesirecat
Super Anarchist
Yep, def a sizable pol/pre loss. This fantasy might be coming down to earth, apparently RU naval ships are low on fuel since Turkey cut RU transits to the Black Sea so no topped up refuelers. Probably not a place to be with half the Crimean population undergoing a sense of rising panic.
