Ultime / G-Class Development

[yl75]

More details on the story in the last tip&shaft newsletter :

https://us12.campaign-archive.com/?u=1e692787e2c4cc3370813fca1&id=7e3c7bac86

English version :

https://us12.campaign-archive.com/?u=1e692787e2c4cc3370813fca1&id=ed38ac91eb

 

[Chimp too]

Isn't it basically a center cockpit boat with a deep cockpit and a hard dodger? I don't really see a problem...

A hard dodger that completely encapsulates that cockpit. So basically the same as sailing the boat from inside a cockpit locker.

sounds like fun

 

[yl75]

For the first route du Rhum in 1978, a boat was forbidden to race (not sure why), but it had a similar "plane cockpit" :



http://www.goldenoldies.biz/Qasdepique.jpg



http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/50 multis/1978 12 vv As de Pique.jpg

L'"As de pique" de Marc Marsol, self designed and self built, time have changed !

Also appears in below video at 1:27 :

 

[JonRowe]

Highlights from tip and shaft article (which to me sounds SVR biased, or maybe I'm just reading my own bias into it):

During the build of what was to become SVR Lazartigue, the Ultim 32/23 class oversight committee visited the site twice. According to article B.1.1 of the 2022 class rules their visits were "to ensure compliance with the provisions of the Ultim class rules.”  And so at the time the committee did not raise any concerns about the trimaran which was being built to VPLP plans with article 3.11 of the OSR (Offshore Special Regs) - the international rules enacted by World Sailing, the international federation - which says "sheet winches mounted in such a way that an operator is not required to be substantially below deck". "The visit reports refer to a number of OSR points, including some close to rule 3.11 with remarks, says François Gabart to Tip & Shaft. But none on that of 3.11".

Says to me if that prehaps its just the other owners driving this

The SVR Lazartigue trimaran was launched on July 22, 2021 in Concarneau, in the presence of the other Ultim teams. A fortnight earlier, Thomas Coville and the Sodebo team manager, Jean-Christophe Moussard, had even been invited to see the boat. "Until now, we had no more information than the photos released by MerConcept over the previous months. But seeing the boat, Thomas then had serious doubts about the compliance of the cockpit and deck part",

Or prehaps just Thomas...

Faced with this stalemate the class called on a group of experts provided for in article B.1.2 of its class rules.
They received the plans and visited the boat on January 11. They submitted a report to the oversight committee a week later which deemed that the boat complied with rule 3.11. The oversight committee then issued a favourable - advisory - opinion on the issue of the measurement certificate. "The report was unequivocal it should have been the end of the matter," said a source familiar with the matter.

However, the class refused to follow the advice of the experts mandated according to the own rules of the Ultim 32/23 class.

Which to me just seems unfair, your own rules stipulate how to arbitrate on this, and then they ignore the output of their own experts, and go mess around with World Sailing (which also seems to have been a shady process).

I think I'm on the side of SVR here...

 

[yl75]

One that didn't say a word yet (as far as I know) is Cammas.

 

[Jean-Baptiste]

Perhaps Caudrelier is speaking for Gitana Team?

 

[Chimp too]

Seems strange to appoint experts to review this rather than go straight to World Sailing, who manage and own the copyright of OSR. Would have thought they would be the first door to knock on rather than the last.

surely the “experts” opinions are irrelevant compared to the official authority on the documents in question. Once having the official interpretation in hand, the class can only then make a decision whether this design is in compliance with they rules or not.

 

[TPG]

Perhaps Caudrelier is speaking for Gitana Team?

It's his show going forward, so most likely. Franck isn't doing the solo attempts obviously so the focus this year is 100% Charles.

Infact here's the Charles statement about the whole thing:

"There is a fundamental rule in the navy that every sailor must respect: you must be able to ensure a visual lookout from the bridge or concerning us on the working deck. This is a basic rule that applies equally well in the Merchant Navy - which I know well because I was trained as a Merchant Navy officer - in fishing and of course in offshore racing. The architectural concept chosen by François and SVR poses a problem with regard to this fundamental safety rule which is concealed for the purpose of aerodynamic performance. When François is inside his boat he sees nothing. François only has a direct view of his deck when he is at the helm. Only we all know that, alone, we are 90% of the time on autopilot, sitting in the cockpit near the winches and therefore not at the helm. In this case, the sailor only refers to cameras and systems, which we all have, but also know from experience that nothing beats the human eye. For example, since I have been skipper of the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild (2019, editor's note) we have almost had four dangerous collisions. Systematically it is the human gaze and not the systems, which are an assistance, which allowed us to avoid the collision. We are talking here about security and not about performance. Innovation and respect for the rules are completely compatible, Gitana 17 is proof of that! The Gitana Team was the first to think up and develop an offshore racing flying boat in 2017. The revolution came from here! For it, the team and its architects had to demonstrate incredible innovation while respecting a framework and rules that are the same for everyone. If we compare to motor sports, the team engineers all know how to make a more efficient car in theory, but the design constraints imposed on everyone must be respected to achieve this.»

 

[yl75]

New article on the story :

https://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/route-du-rhum/route-du-rhum-pour-gabart-ce-n-est-pas-a-l-organisateur-de-trancher-06-04-2022-12974946.php

 

[Jean-Baptiste]

New article on the story :

https://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/route-du-rhum/route-du-rhum-pour-gabart-ce-n-est-pas-a-l-organisateur-de-trancher-06-04-2022-12974946.php

Very unfortunate situation, most complex, hopefully they come to an equitable solution for all involved.

 

[yl75]

Very unfortunate situation, most complex, hopefully they come to an equitable solution for all involved.

Yes a real mess ...

In the end for me it is somehow an "image" question, in the tip&shat audio interviews, Coville mentions that P Brochart validated the "cockpit in front of the mast" option, out of the "collaborative" design process of the last Sodebo.

Ok a boat with "front facing windows" looks better somehow, and the image aspect is key, after all it is what drove the choice of the AC75 format : we want a monohull, but fast.

The security arguments are just poor excuses..

The truth being that Sodebo est "une bateau raté"

 

[Jean-Baptiste]

Yes a real mess ...

In the end for me it is somehow an "image" question, in the tip&shat audio interviews, Coville mentions that P Brochart validated the "cockpit in front of the mast" option, out of the "collaborative" design process of the last Sodebo.

Ok a boat with "front facing windows" looks better somehow, and the image aspect is key, after all it is what drove the choice of the AC75 format : we want a monohull, but fast.

The security arguments are just poor excuses..

The truth being that Sodebo est "une bateau raté"

Gitana, SVR and Banque Pop all within 8 hours Actual had poor race and Sodebo a collision with UFO.

Apparently SVR sailed with a "conditional" approval which I find strange and now has turned into this fiasco. Hopefully wiser talks occur and this all settled before November.

I see in the NOR entry fee for ultime is €80,000 which I found surprising.

 

[TPG]

The security arguments are just poor excuses..

The argument seems to be every other boat you either bail out the back (Gitana, Actual, BP) or side (Sodebo) via clear and large entry ways that anyone can plainly see, that doesn't seem to be the case for SVR.

 

[Trocola]

The argument seems to be every other boat you either bail out the back (Gitana, Actual, BP) or side (Sodebo) via clear and large entry ways that anyone can plainly see, that doesn't seem to be the case for SVR.

That argument has no base, the safest place in a trimaran in case of capsize is the interior. Upside down the central hull is almost outside of the water. And then you have the portholes on the side of the hull to go out into the net...

 

[SSolo]

But apparently this rule isn't a class rule but a general offshore racing rule, and las HB wouldn't be compliant either, and the "judges" considered it was ok for Lazartigue (didn't have time to look into the details)

HB complied as the designer very very VERY carefully read the rules. From what I can see Gaberts boat currently cannot meet the cockpit rules - eg no obvious cockpit drains, doors open inwards and i understand HB's cockpit 'lid' could be removed with no loss of structural integrity, I cannot  see the same being possible in the Ultime

 

[NZK]

Charles Caudrelier raised a different safety aspect- primarily the inability of those onboard SVR to maintain a visual watch from the winch cockpit where Ultime sailors spend most of their time...

“There is a fundamental rule in the navy that all sailors must respect: you must be able to ensure a visual watch from the bridge or concerning us on the working deck. This is a basic rule that applies equally well in the Merchant Navy - which I know well because I was trained as a Merchant Navy officer - in fishing and of course in offshore racing. The architectural concept chosen by François and SVR poses a problem with regard to this fundamental safety rule which is concealed for the purpose of aerodynamic performance. When François is inside his boat he sees nothing. François only has a direct view of his deck when he is at the helm. Only we all know that, alone, we are 90% of the time on autopilot, sitting in the cockpit near the winches and therefore not at the helm. In this case, the sailor only refers to cameras and systems, which we all have, but also know from experience that nothing beats the human eye. For example, since I have been skipper of the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild (2019, editor's note) we have almost had four dangerous collisions. Systematically it is the human gaze and not the systems, which are an assistance, which allowed us to avoid the collision. We are talking here about security and not about performance. Innovation and respect for the rules are completely compatible, Gitana 17 is proof of that! The Gitana Team was the first to think up and develop an offshore racing flying boat in 2017. The revolution came from here! For this, the team and its architects had to demonstrate incredible innovation while respecting a framework and rules that are the same for everyone. If we compare to motor sports, the team engineers all know how to make a more efficient car in theory, but the design constraints imposed on everyone must be respected to achieve this. »

 

[yl75]

Charles is a bit over the top on this one, mouthpiece of Sodebo somehow.

 

[Trocola]

It's funny to mention look out as a reason to validate or not the ultims, if you follow the argument you end up not allowing solo sailing. Let's be honest. They do use electronics for look out and once it detects something they confirm visually. Where do you set the visibility requirements? The same argument could be used against code zeros and mailing them high to allow visibility.

This whole business smells bad and I am very disappointed with the class, to the point that I have loose the interest on it.

 

[yl75]

Yves Le Blevec (skipper of previous Gabart boat) on the Story :

Son avis sur « l’affaire Gabart ». Yves Le Blevec, qui est resté discret jusque-là compte le rester. « Je n’ai pas plus de commentaire à faire mais si ta question est : est-ce que cette histoire entache l’image de la classe ? La réponse est oui mais j’espère qu’on va trouver une solution rapidement. » Point final.

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/ultim/video-yves-le-blevec-sur-son-maxi-trimaran-actual-ultim-ne-pas-subir-la-limite-d-age-15c7feb6-bb3c-11ec-9b9e-5179f805a905

His opinion on the “Gabart affair”. Yves Le Blevec, who has remained discreet until then, intends to remain so. "I have no further comment to make, but if your question is: does this story tarnish the image of the class?" The answer is yes but I hope we will find a solution soon. " Period.

 

[huey 2]

Back in the water