Tom O'Keefe
Super Anarchist
They have been doing amazing things with LIDAR. Hopefully, that technology will help in the near future.
Ultime / G-Class Development
- Thread starter GauchoGreg
- Start date
Translation of the post in French in Instagram, by Franck Cammas:
<<
2022 will be full of new challenges!
I decided to step away from the Gitana team to tackle other challenges that have always interested me, and to continue to contribute to other projects that are motivating me.
I will continue to work from time to time with the Gitana team, sailing for crewed races at the season start, and helping Charles Caudrelier for the technical aspects and the routing of the Route du Rhum later this year.
I want to warmly thak Ariane de Rothschild and her family who trusted me to work on such an amazing and ambitious project! I thank as well each member of the team, with whom I loved collaborating, and who helped us win so many beautiful races in the past 3 years!
I am impation to give you more information on my next projects... See you in a few weeks.
>>
Some of the comments on Instagram are speculating that Franck Cammas will be part of the next French team for the America's Cup...
It is true that he has unfinished business there, and he won pretty much everything else already...
Jean-Baptiste
Member
DtM
Super Anarchist
Can or do they grant injunctions?
There will be a new race for the Ultims starting July 1st called "Finistère Atlantique", going to the canaries and back, crewed :
https://www.bateaux.com/article/40286/finistere-atlantique-un-avant-gout-de-route-du-rhum-pour-les-trimarans-ultim
https://www.bateaux.com/article/40286/finistere-atlantique-un-avant-gout-de-route-du-rhum-pour-les-trimarans-ultim
Jean-Baptiste
Member
Regarding the timing of the judicial procedure, the article says:
<< Ils ont saisi le Tribunal judiciaire de Paris, lequel a accepté une procédure rapide.>>
They filed their lawsuit with the justice court of Paris, which accepted a "rapid procedure". I guess there are accelerated procedures, when there is a deadline for a decision to be meaningful. Now, how rapid is "rapid", is another question...
Jean-Baptiste
Member
Would need to be before 01July for Finistère Atlantique which starts in Concarneau on that date. Actually considering logistics involved with these projects I would think 10 June.
Rhum has hard deadline 06 October although with the court involved I suppose that is now subject to change.
Better to me all parties sit down quietly and come to solution.
Fiji Bitter
I love Fiji Bitter
Thought they had done that already, but maybe not quietly...
Seems to me a matter of too big boats and too big ego's. Very disappointing, and also a result of big sponsor interests.
Franck Cammas will be happy to get out and move to the AC.
Oh wait, intrigues...
Jean-Baptiste
Member
Perhaps I use wrong word, English not my first language. I think all parties would benefit by discussing the matter in private, seriously before it is adjudicated in court which will leave one party unhappy and all with diminished reputations.
I think that's what Fiji meant, but obviously it didn't came to any form of agreement ..
But I agree with you about the probable outcome of going to court.
Probably they should have been must more extensive regarding the class rule (as did Imoca, and have it public), instead of relying on these OSR rules.
And the group being so small probably also makes things worse
Schakel
Dayboat sailor
That's not true Fuiji Bitter,
It's clearly a safety case.
And you know, Safety first.
Copy of a post in the Vendee thread but, it belongs more in this thread:
SVR Lazartique is pushing the design limits, but when the case ends in the courtroom I have a feeling they are in deep trouble.
They have untill Oktober 6 the time to solve the isssues. It's a safety case: too less direct vision on the environment of the boat while sailing.
Even impossible to have straight vision when operating the winches.
Pretty sure VPLP comes up with a proper solution.
Charles Caudrielier said the following:
Charles Caudrelier raised a different safety aspect- primarily the inability of those onboard SVR to maintain a visual watch from the winch cockpit where Ultime sailors spend most of their time...
“There is a fundamental rule in the navy that all sailors must respect: you must be able to ensure a visual watch from the bridge or concerning us on the working deck. This is a basic rule that applies equally well in the Merchant Navy - which I know well because I was trained as a Merchant Navy officer - in fishing and of course in offshore racing. The architectural concept chosen by François and SVR poses a problem with regard to this fundamental safety rule which is concealed for the purpose of aerodynamic performance. When François is inside his boat he sees nothing. François only has a direct view of his deck when he is at the helm. Only we all know that, alone, we are 90% of the time on autopilot, sitting in the cockpit near the winches and therefore not at the helm. In this case, the sailor only refers to cameras and systems, which we all have, but also know from experience that nothing beats the human eye. For example, since I have been skipper of the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild (2019, editor's note) we have almost had four dangerous collisions. Systematically it is the human gaze and not the systems, which are an assistance, which allowed us to avoid the collision. We are talking here about security and not about performance. Innovation and respect for the rules are completely compatible, Gitana 17 is proof of that! The Gitana Team was the first to think up and develop an offshore racing flying boat in 2017. The revolution came from here! For this, the team and its architects had to demonstrate incredible innovation while respecting a framework and rules that are the same for everyone. If we compare to motor sports, the team engineers all know how to make a more efficient car in theory, but the design constraints imposed on everyone must be respected to achieve this. »
View attachment 510656
I had this picture in my files, certainly aware of the design challenge for VPLP.
To move the winches upward gives angle changes inside the ultralight designed interiour.
To broaden the view will certainly need a two new cockpits.
It won't be cheap, but nothing is in this class.
SVR Lazartique/VPLP will have to comply I am afraid.
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Schakel
Dayboat sailor
This is the cockpit that's being questioned.
Last edited by a moderator:
Actually Schakel, the cockpit in question is about 2m below that, out of sight, where the sheet winches are.
From footage of other ultims it appears that also on the others the sheet winch is not reachable from the helm and when working on the winches they dont have good, if any, visibility forward....
I think this is just Coville's bitternes that his 'cockpit in fron of the mast'' concept isn't performing as he imagined. I bet you that if sodebo was faster, this would never happen....
I think this is just Coville's bitternes that his 'cockpit in fron of the mast'' concept isn't performing as he imagined. I bet you that if sodebo was faster, this would never happen....
[email protected]
Super Anarchist
FRANÇOIS GABART: "OUR ONLY OBJECTIVE IS TO RUN AND WIN THE ROUTE DU RHUM"
On Tuesday François Gabart arrived in Marseille at the helm of his trimaran SVR Lazartigue, which is making a tour of the Mediterranean to meet staff of the Kresk group. It seemed like a good opportunity for Tip & Shaft to talk with him about the performance of the trimaran and of course also the dispute between his team and the Ultim 32/23 class which is now bound for the courts.
Before we discuss this dispute between you and the Ultim class, tell us a bit about this Mediterranean tour, who is with you?
We left Concarneau at the beginning of May heading to Lisbon, Barcelona, Marseille this week, then Genoa and Tunis, before returning back to Brittany. The objective is to visit certain subsidiaries of the Kresk group, with the technical team on board, so that they can understand the boat in a performance sailing situation. Tom Laperche came with us to Barcelona, Pascal Bidégorry will do the return trip from Tunis which will be a more solo-oriented trip for me to get my bearings.
SVR Lazartigue was launched ten months ago, today is it up with what you expected?
We feel that this boat has crazy potential. We worked a lot on aerodynamics we had all the figures on computers and simulators telling us stuff, but I was still surprised to feel the performance so strongly. It is obviously more important when you have relatively bigger apparent winds, at tight angles - so upwind, and so it is there, we feel that when the boat can really go very fast. On the other hand, if it is not well trimmed and badly balanced, if you have too much heel or trim, it slows immediately. I didn't think it would be so noticeable in terms of these different sensations on the sea.
Speaking of numbers, can you give us some of the speeds of the boat? What is its speed record as of today?
Compared to the previous one (ex Macif today Actual), it lifts off and flies earlier, it manages to take off with just 11-12 knots of wind, against 13-14 previously, mainly because of the size of the foils and the fact that, on all the appendages, there is more surface projected in the horizontal plane. When we took off at 26-28 knots of speed on the Macif trimaran now we manage to be between 22 and 24 and that allows us to reach 30 knots upwind quite quickly. The figure that I find quite remarkable is that we manage to go at more than 40 knots between 65-70 and 90 degrees from the true wind. That is pretty standard now; I don't remember that we got close to that with the previous boat, or otherwise very sporadically. Beyond that if you really, really want to know our top speed, there is a big debate in the team: some say 49.92 knots, but Fred Bérat, who is out boat captain, is convinced he saw 50 knots on the speedos. What is certain is that this boat is capable of sailing at more than 50 knots. But we are not necessarily looking for that, the goal for us is more to maintain high averages over time, fast, very regularly at more than 40 knots. Last year we managed to do a full hour at an average speed of more than 42 knots in not very easy sea conditions. These are the kind of figures we are looking for and challenge us.
Have you had time to really test it in a big sea and if so, how does it behave?
Foils have different properties and so in addition to getting the boat to fly quite quickly, foils have a real role of shock absorbers which allow the boat to be very stabilized. In heavy seas, we are not necessarily going to purely fly. There are also kind of hybrid modes; on the other hand, it is immediately striking to feel how the boat remains quite “comfortable”. And so I am also convinced that it is precisely in these sea conditions, whether upwind or downwind, that we have a lot of room for improvement.
"We have no other option
than to go to court"
Now let's talk about the conflict with the Ultim 32/23 class: you said last week that you had taken legal action (see below), does this mean that since the case was publicized at the end of March, you have really failed to take any steps towards each other?
There have been exchanges, discussions but which unfortunately have come to nothing. We think we have done all that we can to try to find a solution. The other parties will necessarily have a different view and things to say, otherwise there would be no dispute. What is certain is that today there is no agreement so even if we never wanted this and it really is terrible to come to this, we have no other choice. The Route du Rhum is coming up and we find it deeply unfair that the trimaran SVR Lazartigue cannot participate in it when the experts and the rules consider that this boat is compliant.
What do you say to Ronan Lucas, director of Team Banque Populaire, who in L'Equipe says that the class "had the door slammed in its face" when the class made requests for modifications to the boat?
This is wrong: we have already made changes to the boat that are moving in the direction of safety and which were not necessarily essential from a rules point of view. We made choices that affected the performance of the boat, proposed ideas and unfortunately, today, we are stuck.
How do you view the situation?
Today, I am training for the Route du Rhum. It's obviously not easy to prepare in these conditions because there are a lot of uncertainties, but I'm trying to focus on all the work we have to do to continue discovering things on this boat. And I hope that we will have a quick decision to get out of this situation as soon as possible.
"It would be good to
sail fast together"
Have you chatted with the other skippers in the class?
In the past few weeks no, there have been no more exchanges. But that’s also because we all have our boats out on the water. We also ran across Sodebo on leaving Concarneau to go to Lisbon, then Banque Populaire we saw off the coast of Portugal, we tried to get them on the VHF, but since we weren't going to the same place, it wasn't simple. What would be nice, however, is if we could jusy get on and sail fast together. There is training planned for the Pole Finistère offshore racing center in a little over a month, it would be nice to have these exchanges out on the water.
You will not compete in Finistère Atlantique in July?
Unfortunately no, we are not a member of the class, so we are not able to participate in this race. Instead we will try to sail as much as possible after we get back on June 10 and the return of the boat to the yard, the second half of July, by alternating sailing with a crew and solo exercises.
Do you have a plan B in terms of program if you don't win your case, maybe the Jules Verne Trophy or other records?
There are obviously plenty of things to do with this boat, but today our one and only objective is to race and win the Route du Rhum, we are putting all our energy into that.
What is the legal action? The action brought by the Kresk group, owner of the SVR Lazartigue trimaran, is a fixed-day procedure which makes it possible to obtain a fast track court decision in an ‘emergency’ situation. That level of urgency having been recognized, the hearing will take place on June 23 at the Paris Court of Justice, the Kresk group hoping for a judgment before the judicial holidays (in August). It is a judgment which is subject to appeal.
Given the urgency of the situation - Kresk wishes to ensure the presence of the trimaran at the start of the Route du Rhum-Destination Guadeloupe -, rather than focusing on its compliance with the rules, which would have had an impact on the duration of the procedure, the action aims to enforce the agreement signed on February 16 between the Ultim 32/23 class and the Kresk group that provided for recourse to World Sailing, provided that the international federation renders an opinion before a fixed date (March 4). After this date, the class was due to authorize SVR Lazartigue to race the Route du Rhum. However, Kresk considers that the opinion was issued after that date. Which will therefore be the subject of the legal discussion.
On Tuesday François Gabart arrived in Marseille at the helm of his trimaran SVR Lazartigue, which is making a tour of the Mediterranean to meet staff of the Kresk group. It seemed like a good opportunity for Tip & Shaft to talk with him about the performance of the trimaran and of course also the dispute between his team and the Ultim 32/23 class which is now bound for the courts.
Before we discuss this dispute between you and the Ultim class, tell us a bit about this Mediterranean tour, who is with you?
We left Concarneau at the beginning of May heading to Lisbon, Barcelona, Marseille this week, then Genoa and Tunis, before returning back to Brittany. The objective is to visit certain subsidiaries of the Kresk group, with the technical team on board, so that they can understand the boat in a performance sailing situation. Tom Laperche came with us to Barcelona, Pascal Bidégorry will do the return trip from Tunis which will be a more solo-oriented trip for me to get my bearings.
SVR Lazartigue was launched ten months ago, today is it up with what you expected?
We feel that this boat has crazy potential. We worked a lot on aerodynamics we had all the figures on computers and simulators telling us stuff, but I was still surprised to feel the performance so strongly. It is obviously more important when you have relatively bigger apparent winds, at tight angles - so upwind, and so it is there, we feel that when the boat can really go very fast. On the other hand, if it is not well trimmed and badly balanced, if you have too much heel or trim, it slows immediately. I didn't think it would be so noticeable in terms of these different sensations on the sea.
Speaking of numbers, can you give us some of the speeds of the boat? What is its speed record as of today?
Compared to the previous one (ex Macif today Actual), it lifts off and flies earlier, it manages to take off with just 11-12 knots of wind, against 13-14 previously, mainly because of the size of the foils and the fact that, on all the appendages, there is more surface projected in the horizontal plane. When we took off at 26-28 knots of speed on the Macif trimaran now we manage to be between 22 and 24 and that allows us to reach 30 knots upwind quite quickly. The figure that I find quite remarkable is that we manage to go at more than 40 knots between 65-70 and 90 degrees from the true wind. That is pretty standard now; I don't remember that we got close to that with the previous boat, or otherwise very sporadically. Beyond that if you really, really want to know our top speed, there is a big debate in the team: some say 49.92 knots, but Fred Bérat, who is out boat captain, is convinced he saw 50 knots on the speedos. What is certain is that this boat is capable of sailing at more than 50 knots. But we are not necessarily looking for that, the goal for us is more to maintain high averages over time, fast, very regularly at more than 40 knots. Last year we managed to do a full hour at an average speed of more than 42 knots in not very easy sea conditions. These are the kind of figures we are looking for and challenge us.
Have you had time to really test it in a big sea and if so, how does it behave?
Foils have different properties and so in addition to getting the boat to fly quite quickly, foils have a real role of shock absorbers which allow the boat to be very stabilized. In heavy seas, we are not necessarily going to purely fly. There are also kind of hybrid modes; on the other hand, it is immediately striking to feel how the boat remains quite “comfortable”. And so I am also convinced that it is precisely in these sea conditions, whether upwind or downwind, that we have a lot of room for improvement.
"We have no other option
than to go to court"
Now let's talk about the conflict with the Ultim 32/23 class: you said last week that you had taken legal action (see below), does this mean that since the case was publicized at the end of March, you have really failed to take any steps towards each other?
There have been exchanges, discussions but which unfortunately have come to nothing. We think we have done all that we can to try to find a solution. The other parties will necessarily have a different view and things to say, otherwise there would be no dispute. What is certain is that today there is no agreement so even if we never wanted this and it really is terrible to come to this, we have no other choice. The Route du Rhum is coming up and we find it deeply unfair that the trimaran SVR Lazartigue cannot participate in it when the experts and the rules consider that this boat is compliant.
What do you say to Ronan Lucas, director of Team Banque Populaire, who in L'Equipe says that the class "had the door slammed in its face" when the class made requests for modifications to the boat?
This is wrong: we have already made changes to the boat that are moving in the direction of safety and which were not necessarily essential from a rules point of view. We made choices that affected the performance of the boat, proposed ideas and unfortunately, today, we are stuck.
How do you view the situation?
Today, I am training for the Route du Rhum. It's obviously not easy to prepare in these conditions because there are a lot of uncertainties, but I'm trying to focus on all the work we have to do to continue discovering things on this boat. And I hope that we will have a quick decision to get out of this situation as soon as possible.
"It would be good to
sail fast together"
Have you chatted with the other skippers in the class?
In the past few weeks no, there have been no more exchanges. But that’s also because we all have our boats out on the water. We also ran across Sodebo on leaving Concarneau to go to Lisbon, then Banque Populaire we saw off the coast of Portugal, we tried to get them on the VHF, but since we weren't going to the same place, it wasn't simple. What would be nice, however, is if we could jusy get on and sail fast together. There is training planned for the Pole Finistère offshore racing center in a little over a month, it would be nice to have these exchanges out on the water.
You will not compete in Finistère Atlantique in July?
Unfortunately no, we are not a member of the class, so we are not able to participate in this race. Instead we will try to sail as much as possible after we get back on June 10 and the return of the boat to the yard, the second half of July, by alternating sailing with a crew and solo exercises.
Do you have a plan B in terms of program if you don't win your case, maybe the Jules Verne Trophy or other records?
There are obviously plenty of things to do with this boat, but today our one and only objective is to race and win the Route du Rhum, we are putting all our energy into that.
What is the legal action? The action brought by the Kresk group, owner of the SVR Lazartigue trimaran, is a fixed-day procedure which makes it possible to obtain a fast track court decision in an ‘emergency’ situation. That level of urgency having been recognized, the hearing will take place on June 23 at the Paris Court of Justice, the Kresk group hoping for a judgment before the judicial holidays (in August). It is a judgment which is subject to appeal.
Given the urgency of the situation - Kresk wishes to ensure the presence of the trimaran at the start of the Route du Rhum-Destination Guadeloupe -, rather than focusing on its compliance with the rules, which would have had an impact on the duration of the procedure, the action aims to enforce the agreement signed on February 16 between the Ultim 32/23 class and the Kresk group that provided for recourse to World Sailing, provided that the international federation renders an opinion before a fixed date (March 4). After this date, the class was due to authorize SVR Lazartigue to race the Route du Rhum. However, Kresk considers that the opinion was issued after that date. Which will therefore be the subject of the legal discussion.
