dogwatch
Super Anarchist
The winged keel was all about the 12M rule. Why would you expect to see it "over time"?
Untold: "The Race of the Century" documentary on Netflix
- Thread starter Dark'N'Stormy
- Start date
danstanford
Anarchist
I assumed that it provided some benefit (not related to the rule) to the speed/pointing ability of the boat and therefore one could expect it would provide a similar benefit in other classes.
Said another way would be have the rules outlawed the winged keel or is it not that effective?
Marty Gingras
Mid-range Anarchist
Don't know the details, but evidently several boats were subsequently built with wings and all the details that too advantage of there being wings. US 61 went a different way, with a bulb, two rudders aft, and a forward canard. Who knows what they'd be doing if they kept building 12s...
danstanford
Anarchist
The winged keel was all about the 12M rule. Why would you expect to see it "over time"?
Who knows what they'd be doing if they kept building 12s...
So interpreting these two responses, it could be that the winged keel was only an advantage under that 12M rule. For example if there was a limit on draft but the wings provided more righting moment at that draft limit. Do I have it right?
Who knows what they'd be doing if they kept building 12s...
So interpreting these two responses, it could be that the winged keel was only an advantage under that 12M rule. For example if there was a limit on draft but the wings provided more righting moment at that draft limit. Do I have it right?
enigmatically2
Super Anarchist
Yes
Though it is noticeable that had Conner covered in that last race, he would have certainly won. So how much was the winged keel? They were stronger in heavier wind, US were stronger in lighter
Marty Gingras
Mid-range Anarchist
That's a good example. Lots of shoal-draft boats have been built with wings around that logic.
dogwatch
Super Anarchist
Yes. There's a nice paper https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...metre-yachts/89698D777494D06C121E235178713CFF that describes how the rule interacts with keel optimisation and why AUS II was a breakthrough. Co-author was Peter Joubert, a name some will recognise as knowing a bit about yacht design. Unfortunately it is not available for free unless you've some kind of academic journals access.
Basically the rule set a draft limit in metres of 0.12 LWL + 0.5 which had traditionally produced very low aspect ratio keels. Turning the keel "upside down" both allowed more weight lower down and greater righting moment and opened up the possibility of wings to reduce tip vortex drag given the very sub-optimal keel aspect ratios required by the rule. In the absence of such a draft limit, the better solution is a bulb hanging off a high aspect ratio keel, provided you can solve the engineering issues that generates and provided you don't have a need to sail in shoal waters.
Schnick
Super Anarchist
Modern 6 meters all have wings, though they don't look anything like the ones on Aus 2. I think a non-winged boat scored a top 5 at a regional thing a couple years ago but generally that never happens.
The wings only really work for high-pointing, non-planing boats with a constrained draft.
The wings only really work for high-pointing, non-planing boats with a constrained draft.
shanghaisailor
Super Anarchist
The winged keel was only a factor. Often underplayed or forgotten altogether was Tom Schnakenberg's sails and of course the huge and unprecedented level of training and preparation the crew of A2 went through.
Jethrow
Super Anarchist
Tom Schnacks is/was (was/is) a special man. So much respect for him. As a young apprentice we had some really special conversations that sometimes spanned years. Those that have talked with him will know... 
Crooked Beat
Member
- 327
- 24
Yacht Club bar theory from after USA lost: Given that Australia lost the first two races due to equipment failure, did Conner have a psychological handicap that he knew Australia was faster and failed to cover to confirm that bias?
shanghaisailor
Super Anarchist
I have finally watched "Untold". In reality there wasn't much that was untold. To get a much fuller picture you should read 'No Excuse to Lose' by DC and 'Born to Win' by JB. There is also a dramatized documentary done not long after '83 called 'The Challenge', a mini series which is a really good watch. I have just checked and somebody put it up on Youtube a couple of years ago. Worth a watch.
See ya on the water
SS
See ya on the water
SS
charisma94
Fucking Legend
The whole Australia II (A-II) package was incredible, from Benbobs innovation, Bertrands determination, Schnackenberg’s sails, Bondy’s money & foresight, plus a dedicated, talented and thoroughly professional crew.
BUT, for my mind the reason A-II got up on the downwind leg allowing them win the race was an absolutely brilliant tactical call by the tactician Hugh Treharne. Hughie spotted the shift that DC didn’t, took the punt & gybed into it and then A-II were in front at the bottom mark. The rest is history. No amount of a “great package” could make up the large deficit at the top mark by boat speed alone. It was tactical…
Side note about Hughie : A-II had a slight speed deficit downwind because their spinnakers were sub-par compared to Liberty’s. Hugh Treharne, a sail maker himself, eventually took over the spinnaker maintenance and spent many a night re-cutting all A-II kites, somehow making them more stable and draw better like Liberty’s were. A-II was notably faster down wind with his re-cut kites.
Emufriedchicken
New member
- 11
- 5
Probably due to time constraints they left a lot of stuff out. Was a 15year old boarding student at a college in Perth when we won the cup. Against our boarding masters strict instructions of not staying up all night to watch the race as we had school the next day… a heap of us snuck down to the TV room and watched it all night including when we thought we were gonners but we stuck with it and watched it till the very end. Still get goosebumps to this day when I rewatch the footage again. And still have all my old books and memorabilia from the victory!!
Son of a Sailor
Super Anarchist
Finally watched last night. It was pretty good but I do agree there was not much that was "untold". Definitely worth watching.
Thanks SS for the heads up on The Challenge, never knew about it.
Added it to my watch list
JMOD
Super Anarchist
this is what is currently used by most modern 8mR yachts. design by howlett.
f
pusslicker
Super Anarchist
And America was whiter. Right asshole?
