US Ailing

[Editor]

US Ailing

Salk Vaccine

US Sailing has lost an Arbitration which involved the abuse of due process by a US Sailing Judge in a youth event. You can read the Demand for Arbitration here. This raises more than a few questions. Does US Sailing have an appropriate mechanism for due process in these matters? In fact, do the racing rules of sailing really allow for appropriate due process in all instances? How much money did US Sailing pay for this Arbitration? And who got paid how much? Why does the sport not have a judicial review process? Should judges who are found to have violated due process rights through Arbitration matters like this still be allowed to remain certified? Why has US Sailing not publicized any of this? Comments?

 

[Iain A]

Idealist alert... woop,woop!

take the sailing politics and shove um! All about action on the water...

 

[PeterHuston]

Idealist alert... woop,woop!
take the sailing politics and shove um! All about action on the water...

If the action on the water is subverted by hack judges and poorly considered rules, will people even want to keep playing the game?

 

[stevedallas]

OK, I read the whole damn demand for arb--what was the original RRS 69 offense--any PD contacts?

 

[ntman]

sailho she was knocked out because of something that happened off the water and it seems she was denied natural justice. I don't know what she was accused of but at the very least she deserves a fair hearing

 

[Sharpend]

Due Process?

How did this ever get past the initial stage of the protest where all members of the jury have to declare whether they are "interested Parties" and those being protested are able to challenge the rights of the jury memebers to sit?

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

A group of racer's were subjected to a Rule 69 hearing for an incident that occurred on land and not on club grounds and not during the race/regatta but afterwards?!? One lost a championship title because she was basically DSQ'd out of the regatta by said RRS 69 railroading. Loss of said title caused her to lose access to an invitational that is a feeder to bigger things related to the Olympics?

Sounds like a bunch of sailors were rolled by the po-po. Upon hearing about it, the head judge suffered a bad case of bogus moral authority and decided to take action against them as if they had committed their acts on the water. One head judge is about to take on a NY sized barge of shit.

 

[BJSailor]

Sorry Guys. The AAA doesn't have any jurisdiction here, no matter what they claim. This is a bogus decision. I don't disagree with what was presented in the "so called" (as they refer to the Protest Hearing in the arbitration - demonstrating thier ignorance and non-standing in ruling in these cases) arbitration hearing because we don't have all the facts. The RRS are in place for a reason and sometimes rulings are made in circumstances that prevent appeal because of the timing or importance of an event (National Championships for examples normally don't have higher appeals). Going to the AAA is an ameturish attempt to circumvent a well defined system of protests and appeals.

I view this as most racing sailors will - a non-issue that only deserves a chuckle.

Nice try though...

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

I view this as most non-racing sailors will - a non-issue that only deserves a chuckle.Nice try though...

You didn't read it did you? A ruling based on a event that is not race related. Take your church rules and shove them. They are not part of the RRS.

 

[legaldub417]

i'm a local narragansett bay sailor, and i am close friends with the 2nd place finishers from area a's that ended up being persuaded to withdraw from the bemis by the rc. this issue at hand is that one night of the event, most of the sailors were at a local party (with alcohol) which the cops busted. all of the kids present, whose names are listed on the second to last page of the greivance, were questioned by the cops and had their names taken. it was a few days after the event that the local falmouth paper published an article about this, and then the race committee took action. as i said, they persuaded my friends to withdraw and asked the same of natalie (the claimant). her father refused and instead took this legal action.

bottom line, as a youth sailor, you should know that you are not allowed to be drinking during a regatta, especially a regional or national one. what all of these sailors did was irresponsible, however, the 2nd place finishers did the responsible thing and dropped out. the "claimant" was a sore loser and unable to own her actions. her father and her also have a history of doing similar things when regattas are not going not their way...but never have they stooped to this level.

parents should stay out of youth sailing (to this extent) and if their kid does something wrong, they should allow their kid to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

i'm a local narragansett bay sailor, and i am close friends with the 2nd place finishers from area a's that ended up being persuaded to withdraw from the bemis by the rc. this issue at hand is that one night of the event, most of the sailors were at a local party (with alcohol) which the cops busted. all of the kids present, whose names are listed on the second to last page of the greivance, were questioned by the cops and had their names taken. it was a few days after the event that the local falmouth paper published an article about this, and then the race committee took action. as i said, they persuaded my friends to withdraw and asked the same of natalie (the claimant). her father refused and instead took this legal action.
bottom line, as a youth sailor, you should know that you are not allowed to be drinking during a regatta, especially a regional or national one. what all of these sailors did was irresponsible, however, the 2nd place finishers did the responsible thing and dropped out. the "claimant" was a sore loser and unable to own her actions. her father and her also have a history of doing similar things when regattas are not going not their way...but never have they stooped to this level.

parents should stay out of youth sailing (to this extent) and if their kid does something wrong, they should allow their kid to take responsibility for their actions.

When did Race Committee Judges become church nannies? The RC had no jurisdiction over someones behavior AFTER an event on NON event grounds. Again, some folks need to get it that your ideals and philosophies about the world are not interesting to anyone else.

Hope the kid wins!

 

[Sharpend]

bottom line, as a youth sailor, you should know that you are not allowed to be drinking during a regatta, especially a regional or national one. what all of these sailors did was irresponsible, however, the 2nd place finishers did the responsible thing and dropped out.

Fuck me, in America you have written into the Rules/Notice of Race/Sailing Instructions behavioural clauses for competitors applying for an arbitary period of time regardless of whether they are sailing, on Regatta premises or at a mates place? And this is then applied to sailing results?

 

[Dramling]

I view this as most non-racing sailors will - a non-issue that only deserves a chuckle.Nice try though...

You didn't read it did you? A ruling based on a event that is not race related. Take your church rules and shove them. They are not part of the RRS.

It's in the NOR that no competitors are allowed to use/possess drugs or alcohol during the regatta. Pretty standard rule for junior regattas actually. Natalie Salk was lucky that they didn't arbitrate properly because she had no right to participate in the regatta after being involved in that.

Not to mention that the entire Salk family is actually harmful to fair, competitive sailing. I'm sure legaldub417 knows as he's from the Bay, but the (3) kids play dirty in nearly every regatta I've seen them in. Natalie's definitely the worst of them. Whenever the father runs regattas - he runs the program at a local YC and coaches a HS - his kids are pretty favored. The entire family is infamous among competitive youth sailors in Narrangasett Bay.

EDIT: quick note. A lot of the competitors there were good friends of mine. Although the report is from Tuesday, the incident actually occurred on Saturday, during the time-frame of the regatta, so they were all still bound by the rules of the regatta.

 

[peds]

When did Race Committee Judges become church nannies? The RC had no jurisdiction over someones behavior AFTER an event on NON event grounds. Again, some folks need to get it that your ideals and philosophies about the world are not interesting to anyone else.
Hope the kid wins!

part of the sailing instructions includes the use of controlled substances "on and off the water." here's the nor from the national level, i'm sure regionals are similar.

http://ussailing.org/championships/youth/u...JrChampsNOR.pdf

she broke a rule, plain and simple.

 

[legaldub417]

just to clarify...

im not sure if this was true for the area a qualifier, but here is a link and a blurb from the 2008 Bemis NOR

"14. DISCIPLINE

14.1. Per US SAILING Regulation 10.01 C 2, no contestant shall use, either on of off-the-water, during any US SAILING Junior Championship event: marijuana or any other controlled substance (as defined in 21 U.S. Code 802) the possession of which is unlawful under 21 U.S. COde 841, or alcoholic beverages...This regulation is in effect from date and time of arrival through date and time of departure from the venue."

i'd assume that the qualifier is under the umbrella of a "Junior Championship event." therefore, this has nothing to do with anyone's values, but rather the rules. and it happened in falmouth...ie during the event as defined in this blurb.

get your facts right next time, neutral helm

http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/usjr/double/ click on the NOR link.

 

[Dawg]

If the action on the water is subverted by hack judges and poorly considered rules, will people even want to keep playing the game?

You should hear about some of the Hack Judging that went on at the US Paralympic Trials in Newport. I have tried to get some of the guys to put it to writing but I am sure they do not want to get black listed.

I heard a rumor that the judges got paid $500 bucks a day and the club went $50k in the hole hosting the event.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

just to clarify...
im not sure if this was true for the area a qualifier, but here is a link and a blurb from the 2008 Bemis NOR

"14. DISCIPLINE

14.1. Per US SAILING Regulation 10.01 C 2, no contestant shall use, either on of off-the-water, during any US SAILING Junior Championship event: marijuana or any other controlled substance (as defined in 21 U.S. Code 802) the possession of which is unlawful under 21 U.S. COde 841, or alcoholic beverages...This regulation is in effect from date and time of arrival through date and time of departure from the venue."

i'd assume that the qualifier is under the umbrella of a "Junior Championship event." therefore, this has nothing to do with anyone's values, but rather the rules. and it happened in falmouth...ie during the event as defined in this blurb.

get your facts right next time, neutral helm

http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/usjr/double/ click on the NOR link.

I did, you are still enforcing your ideals. She left the venue, aka club.

I don't know about you but when I don't feel as if I'm still in the club when I am still in the same state.

 

[Don'tCallMeJudge]

i'm a local narragansett bay sailor, and i am close friends with the 2nd place finishers from area a's that ended up being persuaded to withdraw from the bemis by the rc. this issue at hand is that one night of the event, most of the sailors were at a local party (with alcohol) which the cops busted. all of the kids present, whose names are listed on the second to last page of the greivance, were questioned by the cops and had their names taken. it was a few days after the event that the local falmouth paper published an article about this, and then the race committee took action. as i said, they persuaded my friends to withdraw and asked the same of natalie (the claimant). her father refused and instead took this legal action.
bottom line, as a youth sailor, you should know that you are not allowed to be drinking during a regatta, especially a regional or national one. what all of these sailors did was irresponsible, however, the 2nd place finishers did the responsible thing and dropped out. the "claimant" was a sore loser and unable to own her actions. her father and her also have a history of doing similar things when regattas are not going not their way...but never have they stooped to this level.

parents should stay out of youth sailing (to this extent) and if their kid does something wrong, they should allow their kid to take responsibility for their actions.

Agree

Major US Junior championships have very strict rules spelled out in the general conditions for the event. These are part of the conditions for the Bemis Trophy, which includes qualifying regattas as well as the finals. The conditions also apply as part of the Sailing Instructions.

Link: http://www.ussailing.org/championships/you.../conditions.asp

U.S. Junior Sailing Championship Conditions

 

10. DISCIPLINE

 

10.1 Per US SAILING Regulation 10.01 C.2, no contestant shall use, either on or off the water, during any US SAILING Junior Championship event: marijuana or any other controlled substance (as defined in 21 U.S. Code 802) the possession of which is unlawful under 21 U.S. Code 841, or alcoholic beverages (distilled spirits, wine and beer, each as defined in chapter 51 of the U.S: Internal Revenue Code and intended for beverage use). The penalty shall be that the contestant after a proper hearing, be immediately removed from the regatta venue and, where practical, sent home.

 

10.2 An alleged breach of one of these Conditions shall not be grounds for a protest. However, when the protest committee believes that a competitor may have breached one of these Conditions, it shall follow the process described in Condition 10.5 below. A competitor found to have breached one of these Conditions shall be excluded from the remaining races of the series and where practicable removed from the regatta venue and sent home. The competitor’s boat shall be disqualified from all races in the series.

 

10.3 Per US SAILING Regulation 10.01 C.4 Conditions 10.1 and 10.3 shall be included in the Notice of Race and the Sailing Instructions for every US SAILING championship.

 

10. 4 All competitors are expected to maintain the highest level of conduct throughout the entire event. When the Protest Committee, from its own observation or a report received from any source believes that a competitor may have committed a breach of a rule, good manners, or sportsmanship, or may have brought the sport into disrepute, it may call a hearing. After a proper hearing the penalty may range from a reprimand to dismissal from the regatta and additional action may be taken under RRS 69.

 

10.5 Hearings shall follow the process described in racing rule 69.1. The officers for hearing a violation will consist of the Chief Judge, acting as chairman of the hearing, the Protest Committee and the Junior Championships Committee Chairperson or his or her designee in the event he or she is not present. The regatta chair shall serve ex officio as a nonvoting member of the panel and will have an open right to express his or her views during the course of the hearing process.

 

Revision Date – December 2007

I'm truly sorry to hear that lawyers got involved in a situation that should have been dealt with using common sense and sportsmanship by the sailor(s) themselves. This is the kind of example that one of my favorite sailing bloggers would write about, along the lines of his infamous "Mommy Boats" story.

EDIT: Sorry- I was taking too long to get the copy into my post before seeing that several other SA members had also posted variations of the same thing a few minutes earlier

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

You guys are dense. She left the venue, once she does that, RRS no longer applies.