Very true , but this is what the best master sailors did and pick the boats with the best mast rake too .
To pretend any thing else is just disingenuous. 😀
US ILCA 7 representative for Paris 2024
- Thread starter Admiral Hornblower
- Start date
To pretend any thing else is just disingenuous. 😀
MattFranzek
Member
It’s not worth arguing with you any more. We won’t agree.
Nope, it's not disengenous at all. Some people may do it, since they may think it's important, but it's not a major factor as it's often portrayed, at least here in Australia.
It's not really an argument - your claims were simply and utterly wrong, as the simple numbers from the Waszp class itself shows, and you refuse to admit it.
I think the difference is you had PSA building your boats , we had LPE building ours. ( UK sailors would pay over the odds for a PSA boat at that time )
Back then most of the big hitters on the master circuit were picking boats and masts because LPE build quality was s@@t .😀
I don’t know of anyone doing it since the new builders came on line . 😀
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I’m fine with not winning. The Olympics are meaningless to me. I think resources are better applied elsewhere.
dogwatch
Super Anarchist
And 470s are also subject to development.
The kinetics you describe is called shagging. Never heard a sailor call it air humping. Citius, Altius, Fortius is exactly what it is. Sailing has an ambiguous attitude to athleticism which is out of place in the Olympics. As for the aesthetics, well, that may depend on your sense of humour. Finn medalists pump harder, 470 women shag their way to victory.
Doubtless many if not most club sailors of a certain age don’t want to play the unlimited kinetics game and that is a different debate.
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Bill5
Right now
You forgot “Communiter“, which adds a whole new dimension to shagging.
That sounds like a very good explanation. Cheers
Yes, it's interesting to see how sailing reacted to the arrival of the skiffs in the Olympics. Way back when, the head of World Sailing said that he believed that putting the 49er in the Games would encourage a host of other similar "amateur" classes to arrive, as the FD had encouraged the creation of 505s, 470s, 420s, Ospreys and many other doublehanded trapeze boats.
That certainly hasn't happened. In the UK, "skiff types" are less popular than they were when the 49er arrived and they form about 8.5% of all boats (bar IRC yachts) at national titles. In the USA, it's about 2.2% of small boats and boards at nationals; in Germany it's 5.5% of centreboard monos at nationals; in Australia where there's heaps of professional skiff clubs that sponsor boats it's 15% of centreboard monos.
Compare that to the number of conventional crewed boats. In the UK they are 26% of the boat fleets; in the USA they are an amazing 52%; in Australia it's 30%; and in Germany 39%. So after a quarter of a century of Olympic skiffing, the conventional boats remain 4 1/2 times as popular as the skiffs.
The foiling boats are 3% of the boat fleet at UK nationals; in the USA they are 2.2% (including the foiling cats and boards); in Australia they are about 4.5% of the centreboard monos and in Germany it's about 2%.
Incidentally, conventional style singlehanded dinghies make up about half the UK fleet; one third of the US fleet; 56% of the German fleet; and 53% of the Oz fleet.
So promoting a type by chucking it into the Olympics clearly does NOT make it popular; in all of those countries the most popular skiff is the 29er, a fantastic design heavily supported by World Sailing, but only 12th to 26th most popular boat. Stick a fork in it, the idea is done and dead.
Given that the foiling boats classes are even smaller than skiffs after years of heavy promotion as "the future of the sport" it's also pretty clear that there's no reason to believe that they will grow into a popular type even if they are in the Olympics.
One can well argue that having such an unrepresentative lot of craft as the current Olympic classes does devalue the competition. They no longer publicise the amount of broadcast time each sport gets but when they did there was also no evidence that the arrival of craft like the 49er, the Tornado with kite, match racing and shortboards increased the ratings.
It's also interesting to see that while the USA has comparatively small fleets for its population, the real difference compared to other major sailing nations is NOT that it's got slower boats or older boats, but that it has far, far fewer conventional amateur singlehanders (of the Solo/OK/Europe/Sabre ilk) and almost no "intermediate" boat between Optis and 420s/Lasers (like the Topper, Cadet, Flying 11 and Teeny). The lack of those classes may be the "problem" for US sailing.
Oh, and if anyone reckons I'm just biased I should say that I have one craft of each of the above categories.
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Re new classes in the USA . But as discussed on another thread, there is no room for any new class to grow organically as they are locked in to class racing in very old classes .It takes huge manufacturer/dealer support to successfully launch a boat in the USA.
Hopefully the Aero and Melges 15 can continue to gather traction.
Hopefully the Aero and Melges 15 can continue to gather traction.
tillerman
Super Anarchist
Not that I am saying the Sunfish is anything like the Solo/OK/Europe/Sabre ilk, but... the Sunfish is an enormously popular "amateur singlehander" in the US that does fill the market niche of an alternative to Lasers for many people. It's used as a recreational boat, a learn to sail boat, club racer, regional racer and international racer. It is a World Sailing Class with 100 boat strong (charter boats supplied) World Championship every year usually at exotic locations. It's not in the Olympics of course but it is in the Pan-American Games. And there are examples of kids from "emergent" nations starting out in Sunfish and eventually qualifying to sail Lasers in the Olympics. And there are examples of American Olympic medalists later competing in the Sunfish class. Go figure! Plus we are getting some folk from the top end of the Sunfish class moving to RS Aeros.
Looper
Anarchist
That's great. But tell me how many sailing programs can even afford hiring the coach that comes with the know-how to teach to the level that the Moth/Waszp requires?
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
Since when has quantity equated to quality?
You came into this thread convinced of something and have attempted to beat every disapproving opinion into submission with one single value.
Quantity.
I never said quantity related to quality. The claim was that the Laser didn't encourage people to train for the Olympics. The fact is that it clearly does, as shown by the numbers.
It's just not true to claim that I'm looking only at quantity. I'm also looking at IOC criteria, cost, ease of use, width of appeal, and many other qualities. I haven't tried to beat every disapproving opinion into submission. I have shown that some people are BSing when they make factual claims.
You seem to have come here convinced too; it's just that you seem to be convinced that others haven't tried newer designs and would prefer them. Many of us know that is simply not true.
On at least two occasions you've tried to claim that those who like older designs must be stuck in the mud and ignorant of newer or faster designs. That may be correct where you live, but it's simply not true in the wider world. About half of my area's Laser sailors, for example, came from cats (Tornado, Nacra, A Class) and Moths. We DO know about high performance sailing and yet choose Lasers.
Sorry, I included the Sunfish in those numbers but forgot to mention it.
But even with the Sunfish, Finn, Force 5, Classic Moth etc (all of which were in those figures I mentioned) the USA has a far smaller percentage of people sailing singlehanders than the other major sailing countries, with far fewer significant classes apart from the Laser. In Germany, for example, the top dozen classes in popularity include the Opti, Radial, 4.7 and Standard but also include the Europe, Finn, O-Jolle (Finn predecessor), Contender, OK and Seggerling.
In England, the top dozen often include the usual suspects (Lasers, Opti) and the Phantom, Solo, Topper, and Supernova. In Australia there's the very strong Sabre class and the Impulse.
MattFranzek
Member
One of the things I like the best about the Moth class is the lack of coaching, and the debriefing as a crew after sailing. Why do clubs need new coaches? Sail trim is sail trim. Yeah, everything is a bit faster when foiling, but it’s still sailing, not rocket science.
I finally got the WiFi on this ship to load the regatta results I was looking for with my comment about 200 Waszps being at an event in Europe on 2019. I was mistaken, they had 100 boats at the 2019 European Championship with not quite 1000 boats ever produced at that time. Multiple articles state the class of as trying to get >170 boats (close enough to 200 for me) for the 2020 European Championships. Curious2, I was wrong on my numbers, but I’ll take >10% of the total boats ever made at a regatta as a statement the class is doing the right things. Number were a bit down in 2021 and 2022, but the pandemic sort of fucked everything.
If you don’t want to believe me on the numbers of Waszps KA is selling, give AMac a call. His personal cell is listed on the Mach 2 website and he picks up or calls me back when he is free. I don’t know what to tell you but the argument that there are 250,000 Lasers so that’s why they should continue to be a thing, isn’t really an argument. I’m glad you can list off one person boat classes people sail in Europe, I want to know the average age of the people in those classes. One of the biggest issues in North America with participation is how far apart everything is. A Slovenian friend of mine was doing her PHD in New York City and wanted to come visit me to ski when I lived in Jackson Hole. So being a European she thought she’d drive, then she realized it was a 36 hour drive. There are tons of places to race on the US East Coast, but people forget it’s at least 24 hours of driving to get from anywhere north of NYC to Miami. On the West Coast it’s 8 hours from SF Bay Area to LA, another 2 down to San Diego. If you are going from LA to Seattle its 24 hours. Everything is far apart because the US is huge. That’s why our classes are more centralized and localized. One of my home clubs is all about Lightnings. If you go just about anywhere else in North America you won’t see 10-25 Lightnings out on a Tuesday night. At the same time we don’t have VXOnes (East Coast), Vipers (Gulf of Mexico), or any Scows (Mid-West). So yes, the US doesn’t have numbers of people participating in multiple small boat classes, and thats ok.
We are looking at the same info and coming to different conclusions, and that’s ok. It’s not for any of us to decide here on SA. The IOC/WS will decide and who ever gives them the most money will likely be the next it boat. Personally I hope it’s the Waszp or Moth, not the Laser any more. It’s had its run. Time to move on.
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
The Olympic pool is filled with the same water as 100 years ago. The floor mats in gymnastics font change.
The game of singlehanded sailing is not suffering from a lack of new designs. New designs merely kill the existing games.
Finns for men .
Lasers for little men
Radials for women
Optis for the gymnastics /sailing dosathelon
The game of singlehanded sailing is not suffering from a lack of new designs. New designs merely kill the existing games.
Finns for men .
Lasers for little men
Radials for women
Optis for the gymnastics /sailing dosathelon
I never, ever said that the Waszp class was not doing the right things. In fact it's a great class and boat and (as I clearly said) getting great numbers at events. The point is that even 800 boats per year is still way, way down on the numbers that the sport needs to create a class that can represent the typical competitor in the way that much of the Olympic equipment in other equipment-intensive sport does. It is also way, way, way down on being enough boats to keep the sport alive and kicking if (as you claim) that is the way youth are going.
If Waszp is selling 800/year now that's great, but I have linked to their own website that said last year they had done 800 in three years. If we're looking at short term numbers for Waszps then we should also look at short term numbers for the Moth class growth you were talking about, in which case it's down to 75 boats per year as per the last class report. Even the IQFoil is only getting 775 boards per year. Foiling isn't the future unless the sport has no future as a strong and widespread one.
Your claim for 200 boats was "200 boats last fall for Waszp games down under" so given that it turns out you are now saying you were referring to 170 boats on the other side of the world at a different time, it's understandable that people may think you are not very accurate with your claims.
As far as "Why do clubs need new coaches? Sail trim is sail trim. Yeah, everything is a bit faster when foiling, but it’s still sailing, not rocket science" I wonder whether you've spoken to any of the top coaches. Our little club has guys who have coached foiling Moth world champs and Nacra Olympic medallists, and they do know stuff about foiling that many other coaches wouldn't. Sail trim is sail trim, but foil trim is a bit different, even down to points like making sure than no one touches your race foil uprights.
Re age; the Waszp gets a high proportion of youth, which is great, but there's no evidence that there are more young people in foilers than in other types in general. The Moth has very few Youth, for example. And the reality is that there are far more young people in cheaper conventional boats than in foilers. Incidentally, the IQFoil is officially studying the problem that it requires such large sailors that many people, particularly youth, are being alienated. Any claim that foiling is better for youth per se seems to be very dodgy on several grounds.
As far as cost goes, very few people need a new Laser. Their ability is what holds them back. They can get afford with a cheap old one but such things don't exist in most foiling classes and with such low sales figures, they won't ever exist in great numbers.
I've known people who have done or paid for Olympic campaigns for years (many of my arch rivals have done them, like the guy who was one step up on the podium at my last nats) and down here in Australia they are not paying that sort of money for the cheaper classes. As the parent of an Olympic aspirant said a few days ago to me, the cost is much higher in the more expensive boats and partly because there is no big fleet so resale values are very low. The cost of gear IS a big deal for developing nations which is why they keep on voting for the Laser.
You mention the size of the USA as if it's a big factor. I'm an Aussie; not only is our country bigger than the land area of the lower 48 but we have less than 26 million people and face vastly greater distance and expense to get to international events. Despite these issues, we have pretty good fleets. Personally I'd say it's largely because we make sure that things are a lot more affordable than sailors in the USA normally seem to do - like making sure that people can get into competitive racing without paying the cost of a foiler.
Having different opinions is fine, but to many of us, starting off by throwing around opinions that insult other sailors and boats isn't.
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MattFranzek
Member
I think I figured out one spot we aren’t communicating on. I’m saying the Waszp and Moth should be the next step after the Laser. It’s great to have 800 youth and 8000 oldies out racing, but what’s next? Or is the Laser the pinnacle we all stop at.
The Waszp is going in the right direction is my point. Production was 200 boats a year, now it’s up 4x that. That’s going in the correct direction to be something people move into after a Laser. In the US a new Waszp delivered with covers and a dolly is only $3k USD more than a delivered race ready new Laser. That’s pretty good for a foiler. We also don’t have the abundance of used Lasers right now to get people into sailing cheap. I’ve been looking and the cheapest Laser I can find for sale online is $1200 from the 1980s and needs a lot of work.
You are correct, at the top level you do need specialized coaches for Nacra and Moth sailors. But for the kids in summer camps, after school programs, weekend clinics, they don’t need that level or coaching for a Waszp, a decent club level Laser coach should be able to get kids foiling, teach them to get around the race course, get them the basics. When sailors want to move up to a higher level than a local club can supply, then they can go find a coach to get them to that level. Foiling is also very new still and the sailing establishment hasn’t evolved to training coaches for that level. We need a larger general acceptance then better coaches will be trained. I know on my Moth I have to take video then share it with other Moth sailors to get feed back.
The high % of youth in a Waszp is exactly my point about why a single handed foiling dinghy should be considered for the Olympics. Those are the sailors who are training for the top level of sailing. They did Optis, moved up the Lasers and then moved on. The wave of participation is towards foilers, your example of 400 youth and 40 oldies is exactly my point. Of course Lasers are going to have 800 youth and 8000 oldies, boats are easier to come by and we as humans don’t like change. But the wave of participation for youth is towards Waszp, iQFoil, Moth, wing foiling, etc.
You are correct that Laser sailing can be gotten into cheap, and Moths are expensive and not many new boats sold each year. Now I ask how many people who are getting into a Laser cheap are looking at doing an Olympic Campaign? A cheap laser is GREAT for a kid, or teenager to have as their first boat, but once you have been identified as someone who could represent your country in the Olympics, a cheap Laser and club level coaching doesn’t cut it any more. Now you are looking at new boats, new gear, and elite level coaching. Elite level coaching is expensive, that is why the cost of a boat doesn’t matter.
I have a ton of respect for how Aussies keep the cost of sailing down. What’s crazy to me, as an American, is the cost of a used Mach 2 Moth in Australia is 2-3x what it is in the US. I saw a Mach 2 posted for sale in I believe Queensland for $20k, similar to what a buddy had for sale her for $8k, and he couldn’t get an offer on it. I believe that boat in Queensland sold. But they still keep kids and adults in boats and everyone on the water. We can’t do that. Used Moths are cheap, yet used Lasers are really expensive.
Aussies all seem to all live right on the water, we are a bit more spread out. Sailing in the US is just not as main stream as it is in Australia. You don’t see the start of the Bermuda Race or Transpac on the news. Hell, I’d say out of 300(ish) million Americans, maybe 1 million even know what those races are. But if you ask 300(ish) million Americans who Patrick Mahomes is, 85% probably do. Sailing just isn’t that big of a deal to most Americans, where it is to Aussies.
We both hurled insults, I don’t drive a BMW, Im ‘Merican, I drive a truck! I’ll strive to be better, but I will not cave on my opinion that Laser no longer belong in the Olympics.
Side not about the Waszp, I just remembered the Waszp is not even World Sailing recognized currently. So any talk about it being an Olympic class is pointless because they can’t even hold an official World Champs.
