US ILCA 7 representative for Paris 2024

[dogwatch]

The last round of evaluations of potential Olympic boats included a non International class. So that isn’t an insurmountable problem.

A class applies for International status. It isn’t the case that WS initiates the process. It is a mixed blessing in that a lot of control passes from the class to WS as well as some dollars. I am reasonably sure if the Waszp wanted, it meets the criteria.

 

[MattFranzek]

The last round of evaluations of potential Olympic boats included a non International class. So that isn’t an insurmountable problem.

A class applies for International status. It isn’t the case that WS initiates the process. It is a mixed blessing in that a lot of control passes from the class to WS as well as some dollars. I am reasonably sure if the Waszp wanted, it meets the criteria.

I believe it is intentional to not be part of WS.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

I never said quantity related to quality. The claim was that the Laser didn't encourage people to train for the Olympics. The fact is that it clearly does, as shown by the numbers.


It's just not true to claim that I'm looking only at quantity. I'm also looking at IOC criteria, cost, ease of use, width of appeal, and many other qualities. I haven't tried to beat every disapproving opinion into submission. I have shown that some people are BSing when they make factual claims.
You seem to have come here convinced too; it's just that you seem to be convinced that others haven't tried newer designs and would prefer them. Many of us know that is simply not true.

On at least two occasions you've tried to claim that those who like older designs must be stuck in the mud and ignorant of newer or faster designs. That may be correct where you live, but it's simply not true in the wider world. About half of my area's Laser sailors, for example, came from cats (Tornado, Nacra, A Class) and Moths. We DO know about high performance sailing and yet choose Lasers.

The IOC's only criteria is income. It cares only what the biggest contributors spend on the IOC.

And you have beaten the quantity drum incessantly since entering the chat.

My claims about older designs resulting in people leaving the sport is from experience. Only the most driven stay in a pathway boat, the rest leave because the boats are boring, the pathway is nothing of interest to them, and people like you cannot see around your own inflated ego and opinion to notice. You do not care what people really want, you only see the Olympic path as the only reason to do anything. Even your obsessing about one design being the only way to sail is yet another sign that you cannot open you eyes long enough to see that most boats are not one design.

And next up will you you answering every new post as well as answering your own posts as proof that you know what is best.

You're demand that everyone read your circular logic ignores that the Laser is a 54 year old design, a 52 year old production boat, and that the kids are not following it in the numbers you claim. Most of the sailing kids in the US never bother. Not that it is all the Laser's fault, it's more pathway nonsense with the Opti and 420 boring kids away before they get a chance to walk away from a Laser. Doesn't help that most pathway racing is W/L, the two most boring points of sail possible.

Keep on shoveling though. I'm sure your audience stays riveted with what you have to say, until you are told to get out of the bathroom.

 

[Curious2]

The IOC's only criteria is income. It cares only what the biggest contributors spend on the IOC.

And you have beaten the quantity drum incessantly since entering the chat.

My claims about older designs resulting in people leaving the sport is from experience. Only the most driven stay in a pathway boat, the rest leave because the boats are boring, the pathway is nothing of interest to them, and people like you cannot see around your own inflated ego and opinion to notice. You do not care what people really want, you only see the Olympic path as the only reason to do anything. Even your obsessing about one design being the only way to sail is yet another sign that you cannot open you eyes long enough to see that most boats are not one design.

And next up will you you answering every new post as well as answering your own posts as proof that you know what is best.

You're demand that everyone read your circular logic ignores that the Laser is a 54 year old design, a 52 year old production boat, and that the kids are not following it in the numbers you claim. Most of the sailing kids in the US never bother. Not that it is all the Laser's fault, it's more pathway nonsense with the Opti and 420 boring kids away before they get a chance to walk away from a Laser. Doesn't help that most pathway racing is W/L, the two most boring points of sail possible.

Keep on shoveling though. I'm sure your audience stays riveted with what you have to say, until you are told to get out of the bathroom.

I see from another thread that you gave an old Laser to a kid at your club, which is a grand thing to do. Why, then, do you apparently want to belittle the class that allows kids to get on the water like that, apparently in favour of boats such kids probably can't afford?

This silly and untrue personal stuff from you just seems to show that you have no logical case to make. It's not about me, and your claims that I'm biased are dishonest bullshit. I actually own and sail some truly fast development-class craft (a cat and a foiler, with more in the shed) and come from a development-class background.

The numbers don't lie; the logic is not circular. The reality is simple - most people who stay in the sport do so in slower boats. The fast-boat hype doesn't work. Sailors have had the option of buying heavily-marketed skiffs, fast cats and foilers from major industry players for years now. Vanguard tried to sell the Vector, Laser UK sold 4000s and 5000s, Hobie tried to sell Foxes and 20s, Nacra is still trying to sell foilers, Bladerider and Maconaghy tried to sell more BRs and Mach 1s, Johnstone tried to sell the OD 14, someone tried to sell the B14 in the USA, etc etc etc. The industry and AS has tried very hard to sell faster boats but the sailors generally don't want them.

Anyone with the cash can still buy a Waszp, F18, A Class, 49er, Musto Skiff, or Moth; they're all great boats. But most people choose not to - just as you choose not to. Since YOU don't do sail really fast boats, why do you sling shit at other people who sail "mainstream" boats like you do?

Lots of kids around the world DO sail Lasers, far more than they sail anything else bar Optis. It's not circular logic to point that out. What is illogical is to claim that the boats that actually attract big fleets are the ones that drive people away, and that the boats that don't attract big fleets are the ones people want to sail.

If people wanted to sail faster boats, they would. They don't generally sail faster boats because they don't want to. It's that simple.

I understand that you may get frustrated sailing in an area with a conservative attitude to design, but even in countries where there is a very rich tradition of high performance development classes, most people sail medium-speed one designs for very good reasons.

 

[Bill5]

Maybe you guys should PM each other…

 

[Curious2]

People can just scroll by, Bill.

 

[MattFranzek]

Outside of the US you may be correct, but in the US we are seeing way too many kids stop sailing before they get to Lasers because they hate how the Opti and 420 programs run. Be it over coaching, pressure from parents, or just boring sailing (I know we disagree on light air sailing, not trying to rehash that), kids get disinterested and move on to soccer, football, volleyball, lacrosse, or something else.

Cheap Lasers are great for getting kids sailing, but in the US system we don’t get kids into sailing when they are a size that works for a Laser 6, or 7 (I don’t know much about the popularity of the 4.7 rig, tbh I don’t think I have ever seen one) because kids start in Optis, then graduate to 420s and only when they are the correct size move on to Lasers. Maybe this is a flaw in the US system.

What I’m getting at poorly is we don’t have kids to give cheaper lasers to in-order to get them sailing. Kids sailing (and all kids sports) have become such a rich parent game that (and this is as a non-parent) unless a kid is specializing in a sport and playing that sport 12 months a year by the time they are 10 years old, they won’t make the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, or pro soccer. Kids don’t often see pivoting as an option like Slingsby did from tennis to sailing.

So given this, my emphasis on faster, specifically foiling boats, is giving American kids the next thing to keep their attention, because Lasers don’t keep them sailing, never less racing boats. Americans didn’t have fleets of sport boats 25 years ago, the Melges 24 was it. Aussies had a bunch of cool sport boats. Now we have the Melges 24, Viper 640, Melges 20, VXOne, and J70. Parents are seeing how much fun going fast is and getting kids into other boats that will hopefully keep their attention last Optis and 420s.

7 pages later and we still haven’t been able to identify an American trying to make the Olympics in the ILCA 7. Most Americans sailors don’t really care about the Laser.

 

[sunseeker]

I really don’t know any of you guys, and I’m not sure more than 5 people are reading all this. Seems to me that everyone has their point of view and passion. The fundamental thing is we all care about getting more people racing more often. How we get there never has been nor never will be a one size fits all. Maybe everyone could stop taking at each other and instead spend that time and energy just doing a little bit more for your local sailing scene.

 

[AnIdiot]

Outside of the US you may be correct, but in the US we are seeing ...
in the US system we don’t get kids into sailing when they are a size that works for a Laser 6, or 7 (I don’t know much about the popularity of the 4.7 rig, tbh I don’t think I have ever seen one) ... Maybe this is a flaw in the US system. ... 7 pages later and we still haven’t been able to identify an American trying to make the Olympics in the ILCA 7. Most Americans sailors don’t really care about the Laser.

See post #13; this is an American problem, not a international one or an "Olympic" one.

Needs to be "fixed" in the US, not at the Olympics, and not by taking the Laser out.

@sunseeker - maybe your local sailing scene needs cheap and easy access to the waterfront? Or maybe it needs a bunch of kids having fun racing 4.7s? That's what I helped with around here when I was involved, and I'm told they are not common in the US.

 

[dogwatch]

US sailing team. There are a couple of classes missing. Guess which.

US Sailing Team - US Sailing

Meet the Athletes of the US Sailing Team The US national team, which is selected annually, comprises the top sailors competing in the events selected for the Paris 2024 Olympic Games. The roster is assembled from qualification at the World Championship. Through the US Sailing Team and its...

www.ussailing.org

And irrelevantly, the GBR ILCA-7 wannabes. Fuck me, they look young (this is a good thing).

ILCA 7 | British Sailing Team

britishsailingteam.rya.org.uk

Here's the results of the 2022 ILCA-7 Worlds. If my eyes don't deceive me, no USA sailors in the Gold fleet. Not one. Quite a few in Silver. They could raise the $$$ to go. Just (sorry) didn't do all that well.

Sailwave results for 2022 ILCA 7 Mens World Championship at Vallarta Yacht Club 2022

sailwave results

www.sailwave.com

 

[Jethrow]

Saw a notice just then that entries for the 2023 Moth Worlds opened today, and filled the 150 available spots in 3 hours!

 

[sunseeker]

See post #13; this is an American problem, not a international one or an "Olympic" one.

Needs to be "fixed" in the US, not at the Olympics, and not by taking the Laser out.

@sunseeker - maybe your local sailing scene needs cheap and easy access to the waterfront? Or maybe it needs a bunch of kids having fun racing 4.7s? That's what I helped with around here when I was involved, and I'm told they are not common in the US.

In SoCal access isn’t really the problem. The issue is there are so many options to have fun, for any age, the moment there is a bit too much friction in the system, people move on to the next thing. Youth programs do really well with Sabots, a completely dumb but really popular boat. It works for SoCal for a variety of reasons. Probably more than anything, the pressures of life simply get in the way of committing to any sort of serious time much after kids reach about 14-15.

Bic seems to do well with their Unregattas. If the goal is only high end racing, I’d submit that is and will remain a very narrow target. If the goal is more people casually racing, then probably the old Hobie mantra of Have A Hobie Day needs to be revitalized.

Always remember, where the girls are, the guys will follow. So make it fun for females, and watch the growth happen.

 

[shebeen]

Also, anyone who has the dream that an Olympic campaign for anyone is affordable needs to talk to someone doing a campaign. It’s $250k plus to try to make the Olympics. No one from a “developing nation” doesn’t already have huge money backing them to get to the Olympics, so the cost of a $36-40k Moth to actually drive viewers and clicks is a drop in the hat to kids doing campaigns. I have a cousin who did an olympic campaign out of a developing country, the kid comes from money. Pro sports isn’t a poor man’s game, and the Olympic is professional sports.

As a sailor from a third world country, let me very loosely relate how one can get to the olympics recently. The actual people here may or may not agree with the accuracy of this, but it's mostly true.

option A)
*Win 29er worlds as juniors ands stick together.
*get a 49er when you're big enough
*sail it as much as possible
*bankrupt your parents
*juggle your university (college) studies
*try and base yourself in europe for some of their summer so you can get some good regattas in and learn how far behind you actually are and what a huge fleet actually feels like
*scrape the cash together to go to worlds so you can get experience and hopefully qualify
*don't bother asking your federation for money, but beg them to please fill in the forms for you correctly to be eligible to represent them at your own cost
*hang around while covid delays everything for a year
*bankrupt your parents more
*pray that the continental qualifiers don't get cancelled
*go to the continental qualifiers and clean up
*get spanked around the olympic racecourse because your talent and 4 years of dedication are still not enough to even come close to the top programs.
*thank your parents and get on with life

option B)
*go to the continental qualifiers at the last minute in a relatively obscure boat that no one is campaigning for your country
*beat no one and everyone so qualify
*get spanked around the racecourse because you haven't really been on the scene that long.


I'm really not sure if the Olympic yachting program delivers for the sport or should be served by the sport. As much as the ILCA sucks compared to more modern alternatives, it remains the most accessible way for countries to have an olympic sailor. I'm not sure what is achieved by having that person get spanked on the racecourse no matter how good they are or hard they try, but it's the only dinghy class that can have someone coming from very little having medal prospects. If US sailing really wanted Olympic medals it could be possible with the right people and the right funding, easier said than done.

 

[shebeen]

I have a cousin who did an olympic campaign out of a developing country, the kid comes from money. Pro sports isn’t a poor man’s game, and the Olympic is professional sports.

how did he go, make the games, medal race?

 

[AnIdiot]

High end racing is a natural by-product of a lot of people having fun in boats, many of them enjoying casual racing and some of those ones wanting to get as good as they can...
If the programme is focussed only on the few that want to get good, the others will naturally lose interest; particularly if there's no other goal to work towards.
The foilers in the dinghy park are just one of many alternative directions to go in- they should complement the pathway, not replace it.

 

[tillerman]

US sailing team. There are a couple of classes missing. Guess which.

US Sailing Team - US Sailing

Meet the Athletes of the US Sailing Team The US national team, which is selected annually, comprises the top sailors competing in the events selected for the Paris 2024 Olympic Games. The roster is assembled from qualification at the World Championship. Through the US Sailing Team and its...

www.ussailing.org

And irrelevantly, the GBR ILCA-7 wannabes. Fuck me, they look young (this is a good thing).

ILCA 7 | British Sailing Team

britishsailingteam.rya.org.uk

Here's the results of the 2022 ILCA-7 Worlds. If my eyes don't deceive me, no USA sailors in the Gold fleet. Not one. Quite a few in Silver. They could raise the $$$ to go. Just (sorry) didn't do all that well.

Sailwave results for 2022 ILCA 7 Mens World Championship at Vallarta Yacht Club 2022

sailwave results

www.sailwave.com

Note that all four LCA-7 sailors in the British sailing team finished in the top 20 at the 2022 ILCA-7 Worlds. This is a good thing.

 

[AnIdiot]

As a sailor from a third world country, let me very loosely relate how one can get to the olympics recently. The actual people here may or may not agree with the accuracy of this, but it's mostly true.

option A)
*Win 29er worlds as juniors ands stick together.
*get a 49er when you're big enough
*sail it as much as possible
*bankrupt your parents
*juggle your university (college) studies
*try and base yourself in europe for some of their summer so you can get some good regattas in and learn how far behind you actually are and what a huge fleet actually feels like
*scrape the cash together to go to worlds so you can get experience and hopefully qualify
*don't bother asking your federation for money, but beg them to please fill in the forms for you correctly to be eligible to represent them at your own cost
*hang around while covid delays everything for a year
*bankrupt your parents more
*pray that the continental qualifiers don't get cancelled
*go to the continental qualifiers and clean up
*get spanked around the olympic racecourse because your talent and 4 years of dedication are still not enough to even come close to the top programs.
*thank your parents and get on with life

option B)
*go to the continental qualifiers at the last minute in a relatively obscure boat that no one is campaigning for your country
*beat no one and everyone so qualify
*get spanked around the racecourse because you haven't really been on the scene that long.


I'm really not sure if the Olympic yachting program delivers for the sport or should be served by the sport. As much as the ILCA sucks compared to more modern alternatives, it remains the most accessible way for countries to have an olympic sailor. I'm not sure what is achieved by having that person get spanked on the racecourse no matter how good they are or hard they try, but it's the only dinghy class that can have someone coming from very little having medal prospects. If US sailing really wanted Olympic medals it could be possible with the right people and the right funding, easier said than done.

Structurally, this isn't much different to the UK, TBH; except that there's enough coaching available to mean you can be competitive, though probably not for a couple of cycles at Olympic level.
Mostly, the support is coaching and being part of a successful team. You still need to pay your own way (or your parents/sponsors do). The major difference is that instead of being out on a limb beating everyone locally and wondering how good you really are; you're embedded in a decent sized team of people who are in the habit of winning and can measure your performance directly against some of the best in the world.
What people seem to miss in the "cost of the boat doesn't matter" bit, is that the parents get priced out sooner if the boats are expensive to buy & run; so the fleet hollows out and the numbers go down.
It's also worth bearing in mind that a good number of those involved know that they are unlikely to be going to the Olympics but by staying with the programme they get to learn a lot, spend time with some good people, learn transferable skills, make connections and build up a sailing CV.

 

[shebeen]

Structurally, this isn't much different to the UK, TBH; except that there's enough coaching available to mean you can be competitive, though probably not for a couple of cycles at Olympic level.
Mostly, the support is coaching and being part of a successful team. You still need to pay your own way (or your parents/sponsors do). The major difference is that instead of being out on a limb beating everyone locally and wondering how good you really are; you're embedded in a decent sized team of people who are in the habit of winning and can measure your performance directly against some of the best in the world.
What people seem to miss in the "cost of the boat doesn't matter" bit, is that the parents get priced out sooner if the boats are expensive to buy & run; so the fleet hollows out and the numbers go down.
It's also worth bearing in mind that a good number of those involved know that they are unlikely to be going to the Olympics but by staying with the programme they get to learn a lot, spend time with some good people, learn transferable skills, make connections and build up a sailing CV.

If you get zero funding from your national sporting body once at elite level, then yes, it sounds similiar.

Sounds a little bit different once the internet tells me the British sailing team gets £20 million for Paris cycle, that's a lot of money only spent on coaching.

Olympic sailing: British Sailing Team celebrates UK Sport funding announcement | Yacht Racing Life

Olympic sailing – The British Sailing Team has welcomed an announcement from UK Sport outlining a £352 million investment in Olympic and Paralympic sport.

yachtracing.life

 

[Bill5]

People can just scroll by, Bill.

I have no thumbprint anymore

 

[AnIdiot]

If you get zero funding from your national sporting body once at elite level, then yes, it sounds similiar.

Sounds a little bit different once the internet tells me the British sailing team gets £20 million for Paris cycle, that's a lot of money only spent on coaching.

Olympic sailing: British Sailing Team celebrates UK Sport funding announcement | Yacht Racing Life

Olympic sailing – The British Sailing Team has welcomed an announcement from UK Sport outlining a £352 million investment in Olympic and Paralympic sport.

yachtracing.life

That would assume the budget goes only on elite coaching for the "Team": far from it: note my post earlier when I said my local dinghy club acquired a rib through "Olympic funding"; the money comes from the sport funding body and goes via the RYA to support the "pathway"... so some goes to the elite team, some to the Youth sailors, some to the junior squads, some to grassroots sailing etc. Our club hosted training events for Oppy kids, and was paid to do so for several events per year by the development programme over a period of several years. A very useful adjunct to club funds.
It also pays for ribs- which can be seen at training events, with coaches at big regional & national events and so on. Again, clubs that are savvy can set events up that bring "pathway" sailors in for top-level competition and the RYA ribs might bring coaches and support safety cover that the clubs would struggle to arrange for one weekend each year. Those ribs don't come cheap, as I'm sure you know, but are extremely valuable to event organisers.

There are hundreds of clubs in the UK, quite a few of them are engaged with "the system" and do OK out of it... the money gets spread quite thinly.

Success breeding success. It's a challenge to continue to improve- the rest of the sporting world is not standing still.