US isn’t competitive in medal chase at Tokyo 2020 because…

fastyacht

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Let's face it: the Corinthian movement is the cause. As long as the whole world was also amateur. The U.S. was in contention. That is no longer the case, as the U.S. is still a nearly fully corinthian model (in dingjies essentially entirely amateur) whereas Europe is a professional model.

Development in Europe simply far surpasses.

The only people able to support an Olympic campaign are either college sailors or have rich parents.

 

Tcatman

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I think that there is a big agreement on the money required to compete in sailing.  You could be a talent in your local body of water, but if you are not able to get some additional coaching and race in big events, it's tough to catch up.  The biggest events are in Europe every year, so there is a time/money/logistics commitment, and with a small pool available, it could be difficult to get the right individuals into Europe.  

And then there's the Club 420.  It will be interesting to follow the successful USA I-420 sailors from this summer, and see how they progress going forward.  Again, the commitment to get those sailors, equipment, and coaches to Europe takes money.
Hmm..... the young i420 sailors have the skills for which of these  events in 2024

Single-handed:
Men's Windsurfer - iFoil
Women's Windsurfer - iFoil
Mixed Kite - Formula Kite
Men's Dinghy - Laser
Women's Dinghy - Laser Radial
Double-handed:
Women's Skiff - 49erFX
Men's Skiff - 49er
Mixed Dinghy - 470
Mixed Multihull - Nacra 17
Mixed Keelboat Offshore - TBC*

My guess...... their i420 experience is the difference maker over the c420 experience in their college application to a "prestigious" school.    not so much for the Olympic pathway for one male and female slot in the 470 event.

 
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AnIdiot

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GB universities certainly don't contribute to Olympic sailing aspirations. It's all team racing.So that isn't the primary cause-which isn't to say that US colleges could not help

GB has plenty of success in non-Olympic classes too so it isn't just the lottery funding. I think the ease of travelling to nationals and Europeans may help us. Plus success encourages more people to do it which leads to more success
There are probably a dozen clubs within an hour or two's drive of me that have active dinghy racing (in various classes, according to their waters). Most of them have junior programmes that could enable kids to access top level coaching (e.g. Anna Burnet was a visiting coach for a couple of training weekends a few years back). Kids step off the Olympic Pathway all the time, at whatever point it suits them... plenty of other opportunities to stay in the sport if they want to: in other classes, crewing on keelboats, coaching, instructing, working overseas... Hell, the transferable skills are worth the investment in time, alone. The university side is barely relevant, except as another fun way to leverage the experience you gained when younger... It's possible to attend a University on the South Coast to keep your hand in if you have aspirations in the elite sailing direction but they are not complementary activities. Holland is even smaller, has lots of water and a similar history of small boat sailing, as well as easier access to continent-wide top-level competition. New Zealand? More grassroots sailing than you can shake a stick at. Oz? Practically everyone lives near the coast, it's windy most of the time and doesn't even get cold. All these countries also have viable healthcare systems and welfare, so a young sailor that takes a risk on a precarious career can be pretty sure they won't actually end up homeless and starving if things go very badly wrong...

 The money isn't the issue- sure, each sailor needs the framework of top-level competition, coaching etc to be able to reach the top, and you can only do that if you have the finance in place to support it... but it's the icing you need to complete the cake, not the ingredients for the sponge. All this talk of needing to go to Europe to make the grade is a misdirection... the actual problem is that it can't be done in the US instead. How much sense does it make to train in Europe for an event in Japan? Or L.A.? or Oz? What you want for sailing in the US is to be the place that the Europeans and Antipodeans need to come to if they want to win.

 Look at it another way... if you wanted to create the most hostile rich-world environment you could for kids with Olympic dreams, how different would it look from the current setup in the US? 

 

enigmatically2

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Let's face it: the Corinthian movement is the cause. As long as the whole world was also amateur. The U.S. was in contention. That is no longer the case, as the U.S. is still a nearly fully corinthian model (in dingjies essentially entirely amateur) whereas Europe is a professional model.

Development in Europe simply far surpasses.
I note the irony that the whole business of professional sports was essentially a US invention

Baseball - 1871

Professionalism in football/soccer from 1883-1885

 

MR.CLEAN

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Clean,   did you ever manage to get an exit interview with Malcom?    .... it seems like he never existed after the Newport Mafia parted ways.

Is it as simple as... Page is a winner and knows what it takes in 2020 and the rest of them are living their glory days of the 70s.  They did not want to hurt the sailors feelings and were not going to back Page delivering that tough love message.  Also,  what is the story with coaching..... same thing... nice guys with records... or SOB's that can coach talent up.

Stupid question...   Do you think US Sailing and the US Olympic committee have ANOTHER ... "after failure"... what went wrong and formulate another strategic plan.... or do we get the press release  that is... no worries... all is well and on track?
It was never about hurting sailor’s feelings, it was all about hurting the organization’s volunteer board members’ (and donors, often same people) feelings.  
 

Malcolm and I spoke a few times after he left. His timing was good. Imagine being stuck in “death nation” during the pandemic and then having to lead the biggest loser team in us history. 

 

enigmatically2

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 All these countries also have viable healthcare systems and welfare, so a young sailor that takes a risk on a precarious career can be pretty sure they won't actually end up homeless and starving if things go very badly wrong...
That's a damned good point. Makes being  sail/surf/ski bum more viable

 

MR.CLEAN

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Let's face it: the Corinthian movement is the cause. As long as the whole world was also amateur. The U.S. was in contention. That is no longer the case, as the U.S. is still a nearly fully corinthian model (in dingjies essentially entirely amateur) whereas Europe is a professional model.

Development in Europe simply far surpasses.
I would qualify this a bit. Volunteerism, and the deference given to the voices of the volunteers, is the cause of US shit performance.  See the board of US sailing over the past decade for the main culprits. 

 

torrid

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I remember in the early 90s when I first got into racing sailboats.  I was desperate to find information during the Barcelona Olympics for the sailing events.  Every couple of days a brief list of results were published in the newspaper in the back of the sports section.  I think the US medaled in like 9 out of 10 events.

 

EYESAILOR

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I would qualify this a bit. Volunteerism, and the deference given to the voices of the volunteers, is the cause of US shit performance.  See the board of US sailing over the past decade for the main culprits. 
The primary role of a volunteer Olympic Committee is

1. Hire the right professional to run the program

2. Raise money. Lots of it!

 

gohawks

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I remember in the early 90s when I first got into racing sailboats.  I was desperate to find information during the Barcelona Olympics for the sailing events.  Every couple of days a brief list of results were published in the newspaper in the back of the sports section.  I think the US medaled in like 9 out of 10 events.
Yes.  Up until roughly 20yrs ago the US was incredibly strong.  

 

Alan Crawford

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Lacrosse doesn't attract a lot of sponsors, but yet NCAA D1 lacrosse is definitely elite. Some small school could make a name for themselves as a sailing powerhouse, just as tiny Hobart College is best known for lacrosse. Lacrosse is probably going to be in the 2028 Olympics, and US will be the likely favorite, precisely because US colleges support the game.  
And, while a quick check with Professor Google says that lacrosse is played in 62 nations, how many can truly compete with the US on a global basis?

With US olympic sailing, I agree with a lot of comments here in this, what has now become a perpetual every 4 year discussion. I suspect the powers to be at US Failing have no interest to tap into the knowledge here.....

Back to lacrosse and a comparison with sailing. Was one explanation as to the prior US success in Olympic sailing simply because "back in the day" there were not as many nations with the ability to compete at the same level as the US? Maybe US has slipped somewhat in recent years, but can this be more of a case where the abilities of many other countries has greatly improved? And some of this overall global improvement is thanks to more easily accessible classes like the Laser vs, say, a Flying Dutchman?

 

gohawks

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Was one explanation as to the prior US success in Olympic sailing simply because "back in the day" there were not as many nations with the ability to compete at the same level as the US? Maybe US has slipped somewhat in recent years, but can this be more of a case where the abilities of many other countries has greatly improved? And some of this overall global improvement is thanks to more easily accessible classes like the Laser vs, say, a Flying Dutchman?
The same countries that rivaled the US 20 years ago are still in the game.   The difference is their athletes are supported as professionals and they have gotten farther in front of our athletes as a result.  The Laser was the start of it... the Laser athletes in Australia, NZ, GB and a few other countries were just so dedicated and weren't distracted by sailing underpowered boats designed for 12year olds in light air in college.  

 

enigmatically2

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The same countries that rivaled the US 20 years ago are still in the game.   The difference is their athletes are supported as professionals and they have gotten farther in front of our athletes as a result.  The Laser was the start of it... the Laser athletes in Australia, NZ, GB and a few other countries were just so dedicated and weren't distracted by sailing underpowered boats designed for 12year olds in light air in college.  
I'm still not convinced its the college thing. I started sailing lasers aged 15 IIRC, and was doing youth nationals and full nationals long before college. Those who were potential Olympic material were easily identified in those youth nationals. And were thus coached. 

So it was the personal choice to go into those boats at that age. Does that not happen in the US?

 

fastyacht

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I'm still not convinced its the college thing. I started sailing lasers aged 15 IIRC, and was doing youth nationals and full nationals long before college. Those who were potential Olympic material were easily identified in those youth nationals. And were thus coached. 

So it was the personal choice to go into those boats at that age. Does that not happen in the US?
In the US if you aint on trust find AND willomg to "throw your future away" sailing, the  it aint jappenin

 

gohawks

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So it was the personal choice to go into those boats at that age. Does that not happen in the US?
Most of the youth in the US are sailing laser radials or 420s.  The competition was also fierce in Lasers, but it gets diluted after age 18 when the top talent is focusing more on college racing.  If you didn't race college racing in the US, opportunities for athletic growth were more limited.  But I think it is due to a handful of factors.  If anything, I consider college racing in the US an asset, but there isn't much support if you want to grow beyond that.  

 

fastyacht

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We are riptoeing aroind a root cause; critical mass in dingjy racing gone.

Look at my example of Delaware Valley as dimghy racing hotspot  yes Olympoans! 40 uears ago. Yoi youngs look at me lije I am crazy. But true. You shoukd have seen Cooper River! Freakibg Engkish mudpuddle Loaded!

Same applied to SSA WRSA etc. There wad way more back then.

College is kinda all that id left. Or 505 canoe or f18 Thank god for them

 
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