US Portsmouth v2
- Thread starter Foredeck Shuffle
- Start date
JulianB
Super Anarchist
As you have mentioned me, think I should chip in.
The first thing to work out is whats the object of a handicap system.
So I would forget about professionals and boat stacking and get to the crux of the issues which is what are you trying to achieve.
From my POV, you are fundamentally trying to generate a system that equalises performance, so if a crew has a blinder of a day, they are rewarded. If you have a shocker, then you are not!
It really dose not matter what the boat is, and by definition it dose not matter what the measurments are, all that matters is how that boat performs with that crew on that day.
And yes you can boat stack, and rotate in new equipment, but at the end of the day it should be about your performance and if you wish to cheat, the only person your really cheating is you!
So I think that whom ever develops a Performance based handicap system that fairly adjusts a "rating" so that everyone can buy in will be doing the sport a huge benefit.
None of the existing systems work perfectly, they all have their quibbles.
The way golf dose it, (best 8 in the last 20) is breathtakingly simple and makes huge amounts of sense.
The issues with crew stacking, and equipment stacking can be addressed via set adjustments based on number and validity.
If you cheat, you cheat, and if that gets your yah-yahs out, all the best to you.
The other big benefit is that this can all be App-erised and you can end up with PB's and if you look at any of the other sports we are competing against they all have PB's.
You can go sailing by yourself, or with 5 or 10 or 20, you can compete against the very best, the cheats, where ever, when ever, and come back in knowing you have achieved a goal, which gives purpose and meaning.
I have obviously built a sports boat, and yes I have a CBH, and I will probably get a PHRS at some stage. But I am sailing to a) enjoy my mates and b) to see how much performance I can get out of this platform. I intend to hide nothing, which can be seen from the SA pages, and I expect to be a nightmare for anyone who tries to handicap me. For instance, I may well optimise downwards, to gain performance (not to optimise a rating) though that downward optimisation (like discarding the #1 jib in my wardrobe) could well result in a reduced rating.
The previous owners of 6Pac did it, possibly to reduce their rating, we did it because the #1 jib simply did not improve performance so it is infinity simpler to leave it in the locker.
DP, the #1 jib, is pretty nice, but tops out at 8 knts probably. So how often it gets used will be interesting. #3 jib is on the drawing board and I am assuming it will get used alot.
All of this gets massaged into a Performance base system and if a suitable meshing with what Gold dose can be achieved, then it's the best of all worlds.
jB
The first thing to work out is whats the object of a handicap system.
So I would forget about professionals and boat stacking and get to the crux of the issues which is what are you trying to achieve.
From my POV, you are fundamentally trying to generate a system that equalises performance, so if a crew has a blinder of a day, they are rewarded. If you have a shocker, then you are not!
It really dose not matter what the boat is, and by definition it dose not matter what the measurments are, all that matters is how that boat performs with that crew on that day.
And yes you can boat stack, and rotate in new equipment, but at the end of the day it should be about your performance and if you wish to cheat, the only person your really cheating is you!
So I think that whom ever develops a Performance based handicap system that fairly adjusts a "rating" so that everyone can buy in will be doing the sport a huge benefit.
None of the existing systems work perfectly, they all have their quibbles.
The way golf dose it, (best 8 in the last 20) is breathtakingly simple and makes huge amounts of sense.
The issues with crew stacking, and equipment stacking can be addressed via set adjustments based on number and validity.
If you cheat, you cheat, and if that gets your yah-yahs out, all the best to you.
The other big benefit is that this can all be App-erised and you can end up with PB's and if you look at any of the other sports we are competing against they all have PB's.
You can go sailing by yourself, or with 5 or 10 or 20, you can compete against the very best, the cheats, where ever, when ever, and come back in knowing you have achieved a goal, which gives purpose and meaning.
I have obviously built a sports boat, and yes I have a CBH, and I will probably get a PHRS at some stage. But I am sailing to a) enjoy my mates and b) to see how much performance I can get out of this platform. I intend to hide nothing, which can be seen from the SA pages, and I expect to be a nightmare for anyone who tries to handicap me. For instance, I may well optimise downwards, to gain performance (not to optimise a rating) though that downward optimisation (like discarding the #1 jib in my wardrobe) could well result in a reduced rating.
The previous owners of 6Pac did it, possibly to reduce their rating, we did it because the #1 jib simply did not improve performance so it is infinity simpler to leave it in the locker.
DP, the #1 jib, is pretty nice, but tops out at 8 knts probably. So how often it gets used will be interesting. #3 jib is on the drawing board and I am assuming it will get used alot.
All of this gets massaged into a Performance base system and if a suitable meshing with what Gold dose can be achieved, then it's the best of all worlds.
jB
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
This in spades. There are many different basis for handicap systems, and they all work differently. But if you ask seven users of the system you'll get seven different answers. With leadmine handicapping systems, of which there have been quite a few over my sailing life, this is mostly where they fail. The objects aren't defined, or when defined they are contradictory.
To my mind this was the story of IOR. As I recall press at the time people variously thought it was intended to be a development rule that encouraged innovation, provided even racing between old and new boats, protected the existing fleet and encouraged safe and wholesome racing boats. So guess what, it achieved none of them.
Administrators of handicap rules are often very reluctant to actually state what the aims are, perhaps in case it puts off people with different ideas of what the rule should do. I'd add that its by no means unknown for the chosen method to be incapable of delivering the declared aims.
Many folks wish for a rule that would give equal places for perfectly sailed boats. Lets not dwell too far on how you determine which is a perfectly sailed boat or what its performance would be. But, to take very old example, when Tornado Catamarans were first introduced they used to run square with goosewinged jibs. Then some smart folks worked out this was nonsense and started sailing hot angles downwind. So without any change to the boats the performance of a perfectly sailed boat got faster.
Tcatman
Super Anarchist
This in spades. There are many different basis for handicap systems, and they all work differently. But if you ask seven users of the system you'll get seven different answers.
Context matters as well.... in the states... One design suits the american notion of answering who is the Best sailor. just like... who is the fastest at 100ms. Dixie portsmouth takes the 100 most recent top boat in class results and assumes that rating is about the boat...
now compare Julian's notion
From my POV, you are fundamentally trying to generate a system that equalises performance, so if a crew has a blinder of a day, they are rewarded. If you have a shocker, then you are not!
Same goal.... totally different feel. Similar philosophical differences around... Are the racing rules there for safe traffic control or opportunities to win.
I do think you get 8 answers out of those 7 racers to the poll question tho!
