US Portsmouth v2

[Foredeck Shuffle]

Second though, join RYA and push for adoption in the US? Support the organization that is providing the handicapping service? Need some ideas to find a way to create momentum.

If USS really has written off dinghy racing in all formats except what support the Olympic track, then a different way forward is needed.

I know some of the folks that run ORA and we've discussed how to reinvigorate dinghy handicapping in the US, that could be another alternative path?

 

[maxstaylock]

In the UK, they run a big winter traveler handicap series, where 8 inland clubs who traditionally maybe had one big winter event combined their efforts into a series (Selden Sailjuice Winter Series). There are real bragging rights for doing well, for individual sailors, for clubs, and for classes, to put on a good show, it acts like a shop front to show others why they should sail your class, to at your club.

I know nationally your logistical challenges are epic compared to ours, but anywhere with half a dozen clubs within driving distance could work together to create a travelling series, you come to our annual regatta, we'll come to yours, run what you brung events. Sell single number time on time handicap with a scientific basis as a positive, it could be based on RYA PY but rebrand it something modern and techy that appeals to exceptional flag shaggers? Tell competitors that the initial handicap numbers will be a bit of a crap shoot, but the more races you can get data on, the better it'll get, it'll all be based on hard data, the methodology will be transparent to any club handicap officer, not egos or politics will be involved in refining the numbers.

Our sport, everywhere, is use it or lose it, but it's a good sport, open to all shapes and sizes, all levels of fitness, and all ages, safe but not too safe, family friendly, good healthy exercise, having discovered it ourselves, we owe it to the generations to come to keep it alive.

Fuck US sailing if they are irrelevant to your cause, you don't need them to make it work. In the UK PY is largely volunteer built and run, the RYA is a useful label so everyone has a faceless bureaucracy to blame if they don't like their class handicap number. The RYA really doesn't have a big part to play in the UK dinghy and cat racing scene, outside of setting standards for basic training, organising some of the junior and youth racing, and administering the tiny olympic circles, the RYA is more noise than action. It's the volunteers, the classes, the clubs, the competitors, and the industry players, that really make it all happen.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

Interesting, did not know that the PY was largely run by volunteers that may or may not be involved in RYA. Six years ago I began going down this path and ended up emailing with writers at Sailing World, they provided a lot of history about D-PN and were actively looking to restart it. I hope I did not miss an opportunity there.

 

[ziper1221]

Is there a good reason that PY doesn't have wind speed dependent ratings?

 

[Rambler]

Is there a good reason that PY doesn't have wind speed dependent ratings?

KISS principle
We do all our racing under the Australian equivalent of PY (and some ratings are just carried over from the actual PY where there are not enough Aus examples)
It is a great way of building club racing because everyone gets to sail what they want. No arguements. If you think your class has a dud rating, find another better rated class.

But hell, volunteer result keepers have enough to do already without dealing with complaints about which speed rating was applied.

Some days favour you, some don't. Tough, just go and enjoy the race.

 

[dogwatch]

Is there a good reason that PY doesn't have wind speed dependent ratings?

There is zero interest in that in the UK. We don’t want a race officers guess on the wind speed average over the course area and race duration to determine the results.

 

[dogwatch]

Interesting, did not know that the PY was largely run by volunteers that may or may not be involved in RYA.

That's maxstaylock's assessment, it isn't mine. The data originates from volunteers, except at the largest clubs that have salaried admin staff. AFAIK the collation and publication are primarily done by RYA staff. Some clubs will then go on to adjust the PY numbers for their own waters.

 

[Martin T]

In the UK, they run a big winter traveler handicap series, where 8 inland clubs who traditionally maybe had one big winter event combined their efforts into a series (Selden Sailjuice Winter Series). There are real bragging rights for doing well, for individual sailors, for clubs, and for classes, to put on a good show, it acts like a shop front to show others why they should sail your class, to at your club.

I know nationally your logistical challenges are epic compared to ours, but anywhere with half a dozen clubs within driving distance could work together to create a travelling series, you come to our annual regatta, we'll come to yours, run what you brung events. Sell single number time on time handicap with a scientific basis as a positive, it could be based on RYA PY but rebrand it something modern and techy that appeals to exceptional flag shaggers? Tell competitors that the initial handicap numbers will be a bit of a crap shoot, but the more races you can get data on, the better it'll get, it'll all be based on hard data, the methodology will be transparent to any club handicap officer, not egos or politics will be involved in refining the numbers.

Our sport, everywhere, is use it or lose it, but it's a good sport, open to all shapes and sizes, all levels of fitness, and all ages, safe but not too safe, family friendly, good healthy exercise, having discovered it ourselves, we owe it to the generations to come to keep it alive.

Fuck US sailing if they are irrelevant to your cause, you don't need them to make it work. In the UK PY is largely volunteer built and run, the RYA is a useful label so everyone has a faceless bureaucracy to blame if they don't like their class handicap number. The RYA really doesn't have a big part to play in the UK dinghy and cat racing scene, outside of setting standards for basic training, organising some of the junior and youth racing, and administering the tiny olympic circles, the RYA is more noise than action. It's the volunteers, the classes, the clubs, the competitors, and the industry players, that really make it all happen.

The Selden Sailjuice Winter series doesn't actually use RYA-PY handicap numbers, but a variation of it Great Lakes Handicap so as to make it more accessible to the smaller classes not listed on the PY list. Which I think is great for the little guys keeping niche classes alive.

 

[dogwatch]

The Selden Sailjuice Winter series doesn't actually use RYA-PY handicap numbers, but a variation of it Great Lakes Handicap so as to make it more accessible to the smaller classes not listed on the PY list. Which I think is great for the little guys keeping niche classes alive.

Although PY is an input. http://greatlakes.org.uk/The-Method.php

 

[Xeon]

The Selden Sailjuice Winter series doesn't actually use RYA-PY handicap numbers, but a variation of it Great Lakes Handicap so as to make it more accessible to the smaller classes not listed on the PY list. Which I think is great for the little guys keeping niche classes alive.

Not sure that’s correct . If you look at the GL list, with most of the small classes there is no change because there is just not enough raw data. It’s the big classes, like the ILCA , where the changes are the biggest.
The GL use the same data as the RYA system but analyse it slightly differently by concentrating of the better results in each class and from the events concerned .

 

[JimC]

Is there a good reason that PY doesn't have wind speed dependent ratings?

Its a simple matter of data. This is based on UK numbers. In an ideal world there would be a handicap for every class sailed in the UK, but in practice its far fewer than that.

Lets say it takes about 60 results over three years to get a number that has some sort of validity. That already eliminates about 80% of the classes/rig/crew combinations that are seen around UK clubs. That doesn't sound like many results, but in order to avoid tail of fleet distortions the calculations only use results in about the top two thirds of finishers.

OK, now lets say we want 3 wind speed divisions. We'll imagine that the clubs can be bothered to record wind speed and tell their scorers and there are equal numbers of races in all 3 categories. Now we need around 180 results to get the three numbers. That cuts our 20% down to about 12%.

But wait, there's more. Why just wind? Tidal/non tidal may be at least as important as wind. So now we need 360 races and we are down to issuing numbers for about 7% of classes out there.

But hang on, sailing on small ponds is utterly different from open sea, maybe we need small lake/large lake/sea. And now we're up to needing 1,000 results and we're only issuing numbers for about 3% of classes! And that assumes that the clubs are diligent about recording all this and we get even numbers in all the categories.

So unless we want to move away from a data driven approach and go back to people in smoke filled rooms deciding what they think the handicaps *ought* to be a single number seems to be the best compromise between publishing handicaps for as many classes as possible and providing increased granularity for a minority.

But there's another factor too. The object of the exercise is not to decide who the best sailor in the world is, but to enable as many people as possible to have fun sailing competitively. Single number handicaps have a definite element of "every dog has its day". This rarely has much effect on the overall results over a season long series, but it means rather more people have a day when they go home with low numbers on the scorecard.

 

[The Q]

Just for fun my club runs handicap all comers:
On tidal rivers round the buoys outside the club.
On down rivers to a pub and back.
On a broad..
For dinghies the handicap is the same...

On a down river we start in the trees and houses of the village, about 3 miles later we are in totally clear of obstructions fen lands what windspeed do you assign?

Last weekend we had 35mph winds, tomorrow the forecast is um.... 3mph on a river that can have stronger tides than that. You just can't sensibly adjust handicaps on that . We just happily accept the handicap given knowing some days you win, some days you don't.

Oh just checked low tide is 07:56, so max incoming tide speed will be just about race start.. that's going to be fun...

 

[JimC]

Oh just checked low tide is 07:56, so max incoming tide speed will be just about race start.. that's going to be fun...

Starting into the current or with it?

 

[The Q]

With the current, better not be over the line.
And a full reach.

 

[Martin T]

At my club there is always talk after racing of what sort of course the Race Officer set. If there was a lot of tight reaching it's a Laser course! Lots of running it a spinnaker boat course (Fireball, Kestrel), beating against the tide suits Solo's.
But sailing a Laser Radial is always a plus, as it's known as a handicap bandit & I get a lot of ribbing...lol.
Also the tide has a big part to play, as on a light wind day the faster boats can get back up the creek before the tide gets too strong, whilst the slower boats struggle.
So PY's not a perfect system, swings & roundabouts, but it gets us out racing & having fun, which is the point afterall.

 

[The Q]

No wind at all, today the only ripples on the water are from the ducks even the seal and the otter didn't make an appearance, sailing abandoned.

 

[Xeon]

No wind at all, today the only ripples on the water are from the ducks even the seal and the otter didn't make an appearance, sailing abandoned.

Snap and we had lots of ice too .

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

A lot of positive commentary from across the pond, a bit telling that US responses are absent.

I have enough hobbies but I think I'm going to pursue this. Need to get my home club scoring fixed first so we can report to PY.

 

[BrightAyes]

Any comment from US Sailing supporters? Who dropped the ball? And why?

 

[Bored Stiff]

This is why it isn’t working and won’t work in the US. Too much apathy and a consumer culture that expects to be able to pay for a solution rather than volunteer to deliver one.