US Portsmouth v2

lyncht

Member
156
5
New Jersey
I'm in northern NJ in a small lake community halfway between Greenwood Lake and Lake Hopatcong (all 3 of which have OD racing). If you're serious and somewhat close to local, I'd love to have someone to join forces with if only to get a response from US Sailing.
Dillon,

Monmouth Boat Club (Red Bank, NJ) stages dozens of handicap and one-design races annually. ALL are scored using the D-Pn numbers.

Google us....
 

Tcatman

Super Anarchist
1,571
161
Chesapeake Bay
lyncht... Two questions Your RC is taking times on the one design races? If yes... what kind of feed back to you get from racers about their time deltas.. do they like seeing the data ... (The clock don't lie) Do you ever show the results as the rating that helm actually sailed that race at.... (always a reality check) Second question... statistical handicap system want Fleets of boats in the race being scored to have power in the ratings calcs. ... How many classes in your handicap races have three of the same class of boats on the line or are all of racers one offs? (In the USA, the culture is that if 4 boats registered then they will insist they race one design.
 
How complicated is it to submit data? Last time i investigated, they wanted anemometer readings at multiple points on the course over various times during a regatta? That is certainly more effort than our race committees can commit. Our club is almost exclusive Portsmouth Handicap racing in NW Alabama. Guests are welcome. We gen up numbers for boats not listed from the 2000 timeframe, but that is arbitrary. We are pretty informal.
 

Bored Stiff

Member
321
249
Copenhagen
Do you ever show the results as the rating that helm actually sailed that race at
Not sure that is possible. Imagine a very simple two boat race, A’s handicap is 100 and B’s handicap is 101. They race and B beats A over the water. Did B sail to 99 or A to 102? It’s not a well-posed problem with a unique solution.
 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
17,887
2,178
South Coast, UK
Not sure that is possible. Imagine a very simple two boat race, A’s handicap is 100 and B’s handicap is 101. They race and B beats A over the water. Did B sail to 99 or A to 102? It’s not a well-posed problem with a unique solution.
It has a unique solution if you normalise by taking the fleet on average as sailing to their mean handicap. Whether it is useful or interesting, I'm not so sure.
 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
17,887
2,178
South Coast, UK
How complicated is it to submit data? Last time i investigated, they wanted anemometer readings at multiple points on the course over various times during a regatta? That is certainly more effort than our race committees can commit.
This is for dinghy handicaps?

I periodically help run dinghy handicap races for one of the larger UK clubs. There is no way for club racing that we could take "anemometer readings at multiple points on the course over various times". We often run weekday evening racing with the RC onshore in the race box with a single 2-person safety boat covering maybe 20-40 boats over up to a few square miles of estuarial water. The fleet gets well spread out. The job of the safety boat is to keep two pairs of eyes scanning the fleet, not to take all those readings. Our biggest challenge on recording results for PY submission is to get the RC to remember to take timings, not just finishing positions. It is that basic. Open meetings and championships get way more resources but are not handicap events.
 

pqbon

Anarchist
552
274
Cambridge UK
This is for dinghy handicaps?

I periodically help run dinghy handicap races for one of the larger UK clubs. There is no way for club racing that we could take "anemometer readings at multiple points on the course over various times". We often run weekday evening racing with the RC onshore in the race box with a single 2-person safety boat covering maybe 20-40 boats over up to a few square miles of estuarial water. The fleet gets well spread out. The job of the safety boat is to keep two pairs of eyes scanning the fleet, not to take all those readings. Our biggest challenge on recording results for PY submission is to get the RC to remember to take timings, not just finishing positions. It is that basic. Open meetings and championships get way more resources but are not handicap events.
Yes -- it would very really tough for us also. We also have big differences in wind over the course of a 40min race. We frequently enough have squall like system come through over the course of a race so we might start in 5-8kts - have 15-20 in the middle and finish in 5-8kts and wind shadows where the main lake body is 12kts in the shadow it can be 5kts or less... (And to keep it exciting we often race around those shadows.)
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
The submitted format is basically the standard from SailWave. You can put in the wind readings in each submission from the RC boat, most RC's are not going to be doing better. I would consider it more of a hopeful ask that some RC's might be willing to do.

If wind range ratings for boats is too complicated, multiple wind readings from different locations of the course seems to fall into that same category. Once you are riding down the hill of making it easy, keep it that way.
 

lyncht

Member
156
5
New Jersey
lyncht... Two questions Your RC is taking times on the one design races? If yes... what kind of feed back to you get from racers about their time deltas.. do they like seeing the data ... (The clock don't lie) Do you ever show the results as the rating that helm actually sailed that race at.... (always a reality check) Second question... statistical handicap system want Fleets of boats in the race being scored to have power in the ratings calcs. ... How many classes in your handicap races have three of the same class of boats on the line or are all of racers one offs? (In the USA, the culture is that if 4 boats registered then they will insist they race one design.
No- no times are taken for OD fleets.

Typically have 15 boats across 4 fleets- one fleet with 6/7, one with 3/4, one with 2, then solos.

Varies though (obviously)

These are mandated evening handicap races....one start to save precious daylight.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
No- no times are taken for OD fleets.

Typically have 15 boats across 4 fleets- one fleet with 6/7, one with 3/4, one with 2, then solos.

Varies though (obviously)

These are mandated evening handicap races....one start to save precious daylight.
That's a shame. OD times would create valuable data to help calibrate ratings of boats for which there are fewer records. If you can create a rating from several OD classes and then use that data to correlate how it performs against a not well known and underscored boat, the unknown boat rating should be more accurate.
 

pqbon

Anarchist
552
274
Cambridge UK
That's a shame. OD times would create valuable data to help calibrate ratings of boats for which there are fewer records. If you can create a rating from several OD classes and then use that data to correlate how it performs against a not well known and underscored boat, the unknown boat rating should be more accurate.
We take times for the OD classes at our club. It helps keep the data clear - we take lap times and finish times so we can evaluate the data. If someone apears to loose a lap and fall a lap behind is it because we missed them or did they capsize or have a boat problem?
 

ShinyThings

New member
2
3
There are a number of clubs, mainly in the SE, that still use the DPN to this day. While the RYA numbers are great, they won’t work for many US clubs with boats that are specific to the US (think Thistles and Flying Scots). My personal opinion is that USS lacks support for small boat sailors, specifically those sailing in inland lakes (aka US Pond Monkeys).

I have DPN datasets that are current to 2021 but based on limited data updates from the clubs that send me their data. (see https://rpubs.com/lagraham/757961 ) These results have been sent to US Sailing but were never posted.

I also have a newer model that I think will work well for a revised DPN. Happy to work with anyone on this thread to keep the DPN going. I would love to test out my revised DPN model if you are interested. Otherwise, let me know if you want updated ratings for your club or new ratings for your boats.


@Foredeck Shuffle. I can get you estimated ratings for the M15 and RS600 based on the DPN formulas. Let me know!
 
Reached out to a friend and learned that a US Sailing volunteer is still collecting and processing data submitted to them, at least as of 2021. This link has the latest data, but US Sailing doesn't publish it. I believe Laura Grahm is still willing to collect and maintain the D-PN data, and continue sending any she gets to USS.
The latest is posted here:
 

Kazrob

New member
18
30
Scotland
As others have said, probably 90% of UK dinghy races are run using PY handicaps. It's not perfect, but it's fun and there's a lot of skill in racing in a mixed fleet. To make it even better, try average lap races with a fairly small course and every lap being the same. A lot of clubs aim for 30-40min races, with the fast boats doing maybe 3-4 laps and slower ones fewer, but everyone generally sails in similar wind and current conditions. Afterwards the corrected times (based om time-on-time) are then divided by the number of laps to get an corrected average lap time. For my money, two short races is much more fun than one longer one.
Even if your classes are not on the RYA list, it's fairly simple to start with a guesstimate number based on similar classes and refine it over the season to find something reasonably fair.
 

Tcatman

Super Anarchist
1,571
161
Chesapeake Bay
`
No- no times are taken for OD fleets.

Typically have 15 boats across 4 fleets- one fleet with 6/7, one with 3/4, one with 2, then solos.

Varies though (obviously)

These are mandated evening handicap races....one start to save precious daylight.
Nothing wrong here... but this is the American way of doing things... 15 boats... chopped up into 4 fleets..... I find the fun factor ....simply as a racing event is over after a month.... the pecking order is what it is... and the racing results are predictable. Racing is just a good excuse to go sailing and drink beer with friends. IMO, If you raced everyone together and scored like the post about recording lap times and short courses.. the racing element would get a shot of life. The clock doesn't lie.... when you sail better you have a good measure of it.... If you don't care about performance improvement.... don't worry about the times and the score sheet. The Brits get it and that is why they race dinghies on handicap much more then we do and why the RYA stat tables work.

The USA has a very bad implementation of a PHRF like system for the one off dinghies and dead classes.. This would not be a problem for the kind of racing lyncht organizes. but... US Sailing has never and will never be that authority and function like a regional PHRF handicap committee....

The prerequisties for running the USPN calculator are a FLEET of one design classes competing against each other so that the top performances are collected for each class and the rating table reflects the max performance of the class design. IF you don't have a fleet of something on the water competing against a fleet of lasers or an F18s or a Thistles..... you won't get a statistical rating worth beans. The US small boat racing culture needs to evolve and accept handicap racing before any worries about the nuts and bolts of how to generate a table matter. The RYA solution was a great one for the US.... Just PHRF the boats you actually have on the water into the RYA table.
 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,241
1,188
South East England
There are a number of clubs, mainly in the SE, that still use the DPN to this day. While the RYA numbers are great, they won’t work for many US clubs with boats that are specific to the US (think Thistles and Flying Scots).
We're seeing data coming through for the US classes. The flying Scot in particular isn't a mile away from being publishable.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
Reached out to a friend and learned that a US Sailing volunteer is still collecting and processing data submitted to them, at least as of 2021. This link has the latest data, but US Sailing doesn't publish it. I believe Laura Grahm is still willing to collect and maintain the D-PN data, and continue sending any she gets to USS.
The latest is posted here:
Do you know if they intend on amending the new ratings into the D-PN list?

There are significant differences such as these two.

CodeBoat2020 D-PNRevised D-PN
LASELaser (Int.)91.190.6
LASEMLaser Radial/Laser M96.795.7

I think I just found the answer, all of the D-PN links on the USS website end up in 404's. Going to reach out for a definitive answer.
 
Last edited:
Do you know if they intend on amending the new ratings into the D-PN list?

There are significant differences such as these two.

CodeBoat2020 D-PNRevised D-PN
LASELaser (Int.)91.190.6
LASEMLaser Radial/Laser M96.795.7

I think I just found the answer, all of the D-PN links on the USS website end up in 404's. Going to reach out for a definitive answer.
My understanding is that Laura is a willing USS volunteer, but her work maintaining DPNs has been ignored by USS.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
She is still listed as the Chair of Portsmouth on the USS website. When navigating to this page you get a page that writes about how new sailors can best learn in small boats, here is the text.

Small Boat Racing

The fundamentals of racing are most easily learned in small boats.

One design, Multihull, Match Racing, Team Racing, Windsurfing, and Kite Boarding all provide great racing opportunities for new sailors or experienced competitors. Small boat sailing can also provide plenty of family fun and relaxing days on the water.

The myopic nature of only advertising OD is consistent at USS.
 
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