US Portsmouth v2

[Foredeck Shuffle]

ummm significant differences????

.005 delta.... not really

Shouldn't this be the RYA rating?

We have Laser's racing Portsmouth and going back and looking at the races the Radial rating would change some finishes last year.

There is a team of designated and titled volunteers at USS working on D-PN and USS does not utilize their work? If PY is the new system why haven't these volunteers been redirected to PY adoption? Without PY support at USS who will convince PRO's to migrate to PY?

This... ...is frustrating.

 

[eyeshotpar]

ummm significant differences????

.005 delta.... not really

Shouldn't this be the RYA rating?

Again,my understanding is niether of the columns in the attachment have been published by USS or RYA To be fair, one would have to compare to the last table USS published. You would find many of the boats are not on that list at all, circa 2000 I think. Of course, any club can use these latest numbers, we have adopted them.

 

[Tcatman]

There is a team of designated and titled volunteers at USS working on D-PN and USS does not utilize their work?

This... ...is frustrating.

You have it backwards... USS Follows.... they do not lead.... When for instance a club gets their US Sailing Regional Sailing Association to adopt ABC rating system... US Sailing will report EXACTLY that.....they would probably publish the ratings table on their web site.. That is it. And for good reason!!!.... They won't get in the position of evaluating X versus Y handicap.... could you imagine the shitstorm if US Sailing declared ORC is the superior rating system over PHRF.

Point 2.... The US PN system was designed and developed in a different era. If you want to run the Dixie USPN system with integrity in 2023 and generate a current valid table you will almost certainly fail.

Point 3. I am sure the volunteers are well meaning but the key to acceptance of a ratings table is transparency. The current PN should explain how the changes and/ or pre requisite assumptions underlying the published Dixie PN system cira 53??? are being handled in 2023.

The alternative is for each club or PRO to write their NOR stating they are using the RYA table. Classes that are not listed will be assigned a provisional rating in consultation with the owner for that event. (US Sailing is not going to get involved in the club's and sailor's choices)

Everyone should understand that unless a fleet of those boats starts racing other fleets... the rating will be provisional and some club's ratings guru's best attempt to be fair. It won't make the table unless a fleet of them are racing.

I appreciate that you find this frustrating ...

 

[lyncht]

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Nothing wrong here... but this is the American way of doing things... 15 boats... chopped up into 4 fleets..... I find the fun factor ....simply as a racing event is over after a month.... the pecking order is what it is... and the racing results are predictable. Racing is just a good excuse to go sailing and drink beer with friends. IMO, If you raced everyone together and scored like the post about recording lap times and short courses.. the racing element would get a shot of life. The clock doesn't lie.... when you sail better you have a good measure of it.... If you don't care about performance improvement.... don't worry about the times and the score sheet. The Brits get it and that is why they race dinghies on handicap much more then we do and why the RYA stat tables work.

The USA has a very bad implementation of a PHRF like system for the one off dinghies and dead classes.. This would not be a problem for the kind of racing lyncht organizes. but... US Sailing has never and will never be that authority and function like a regional PHRF handicap committee....

The prerequisties for running the USPN calculator are a FLEET of one design classes competing against each other so that the top performances are collected for each class and the rating table reflects the max performance of the class design. IF you don't have a fleet of something on the water competing against a fleet of lasers or an F18s or a Thistles..... you won't get a statistical rating worth beans. The US small boat racing culture needs to evolve and accept handicap racing before any worries about the nuts and bolts of how to generate a table matter. The RYA solution was a great one for the US.... Just PHRF the boats you actually have on the water into the RYA table.

I guess I wasn't clear. ALL fifteen boats are sailed and scored Time-on-time against each other. Different skippers and mis-matched boats win the (typically) three evening races. Fun stuff.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

You have it backwards... USS Follows.... they do not lead....
~ ~ ~ snip ~ ~ ~
I appreciate that you find this frustrating ...

But USS did take a position. It declared D-PN retired and PY as the new system. Then it went on to provide no further direction. No one in the US asked for PY, USS initiated that effort.

 

[ShinyThings]

Point 3. I am sure the volunteers are well meaning but the key to acceptance of a ratings table is transparency. The current PN should explain how the changes and/ or pre requisite assumptions underlying the published Dixie PN system cira 53??? are being handled in 2023.

I definitely know it's frustrating but transparency isn't the issue. The DPN formulas were available on USS so you could recalculate base numbers and calculate your own provisional ratings. You can still find them here (https://www.ussailing.org/wp-conten...th-American-Portsmouth-Yardstick-Handbook.pdf).

But, as a statistician, I completely agree that they are out-of-date. Ultimately, I think it's up to the clubs to decide what they want to use. They can even develop their own rating systems based off of their unique environmental conditions.

 

[Bored Stiff]

I don’t understand why it’s all so difficult for you guys. Keep it simple; use the RYA system, don‘t reinvent the wheel. Pay them a €1000 a year and they’ll probably churn out the numbers for US specific classes for you too.

 

[Tcatman]

I guess I wasn't clear. ALL fifteen boats are sailed and scored Time-on-time against each other. Different skippers and mis-matched boats win the (typically) three evening races. Fun stuff.

Great.!!!... Here is the big question... would any of these racers... put the boat on the trailer and do a weekend regatta at another local club racing on handicap? If the fleet doubled in size from 15 to 30 racing the same way .. would the fun factor increase be worth it to them???

 

[Tcatman]

But USS did take a position. It declared D-PN retired and PY as the new system. Then it went on to provide no further direction. No one in the US asked for PY, USS initiated that effort.

 

[Tcatman]

But USS did take a position. It declared D-PN retired and PY as the new system. Then it went on to provide no further direction. No one in the US asked for PY, USS initiated that effort.

I don't think they declared it retired... they did not have enough volunteer support who could stand by the numbers and issue a new table with integrity... People were very keenly wanting a workable dinghy handicap system. USSA did the smart thing and cut a deal with the RYA. You can use it or use the old table with numbers for the new boats of some unknown provenance... YMMV....

 

[JimC]

Because I like playing with numbers I did some comparisons between those DPN numbers and RYA PY. Basically it seems to me that the most likely reason USSailing never published a conversion factor was because it's just not practical. Although I produced a formula that gave a conversion calculation several individual classes were just so far off what the formula predicted that it was clear that any attempt at a calculation was futile. The only way that past data from D-PN could be used in PY online would be if complete sets of race results were entered.

DPN and RYA PY seem to produce surprisingly different results. Compared to RA PY in general (although there are numerous exceptions for individual classes) fast boats appear to be rated as slower and slower boats rated as faster in DPN. I suppose this is an artifact of the different calculation systems. RYA PN aims to represent the main body of the active fleet (about the top two thirds in practice). DPN , AIUI, is intended to provide a handicap adjusted for potential race winners using, if I understand the docs I found correctly, the concept that its possible to sail a perfect race and that race winners/fleet leaders approach this. The RYA aim seems to me a lot simpler to attain using statistical methods.

Perhaps the big lesson from that is that handicaps make less difference than most people believe!

 

[lyncht]

Great.!!!... Here is the big question... would any of these racers... put the boat on the trailer and do a weekend regatta at another local club racing on handicap? If the fleet doubled in size from 15 to 30 racing the same way .. would the fun factor increase be worth it to them???

Few, if any, of these racers would travel for a mixed fleet handicap regatta. Many, perhaps most, DO travel nearly every Summer weekend to race one-design and a number also travel to regional and National events. Growing fleets - MC Scow - are quite active. Sustaining fleets - Flying Scot, Laser - are steady. Dying fleets - Lightning - declining. Comatose fleets - Woodpussy - on life support.

 

[Tcatman]

Because I like playing with numbers I did some comparisons between those DPN numbers and RYA PY. Basically it seems to me that the most likely reason USSailing never published a conversion factor was because it's just not practical. Although I produced a formula that gave a conversion calculation several individual classes were just so far off what the formula predicted that it was clear that any attempt at a calculation was futile. The only way that past data from D-PN could be used in PY online would be if complete sets of race results were entered.

DPN and RYA PY seem to produce surprisingly different results. Compared to RA PY in general (although there are numerous exceptions for individual classes) fast boats appear to be rated as slower and slower boats rated as faster in DPN. I suppose this is an artifact of the different calculation systems. RYA PN aims to represent the main body of the active fleet (about the top two thirds in practice). DPN , AIUI, is intended to provide a handicap adjusted for potential race winners using, if I understand the docs I found correctly, the concept that its possible to sail a perfect race and that race winners/fleet leaders approach this. The RYA aim seems to me a lot simpler to attain using statistical methods.

Perhaps the big lesson from that is that handicaps make less difference than most people believe!

You are spot on. Fast boats getting rated slower is a function of the zombie nature of the USPN system. The USPN does not build in a "freeze the rating" when a class fails to show up in numbers for fleet status. This is a fundamental problem with dixie USPN because it voids one of the foundational assumptions for generating dixi portsmouth ratings (fleets). All data are not equal and when the third owner of a class boat (that can't muster a fleet of boats) and using the 10 year old sails that came with the race boat and his 2023 results are now "race data".... It really should be set aside. For the USPN calculator... this is garbage in.... garbage out. The rating of the class is not being adjusted statistically... in reality... the race boat and sails are now long in the tooth and sailed by a less skilled helm without fleets to buil statistics around. The 2023 rating result is not a measure of the optimal performance of that class of boat as defined by Dixie USPN.

What this sailor and most importantly the handicap fleet ACTUALLY NEEDS is the RYA portsmouth system which measures the fleet performance of the class as it currently functions and can be managed with integrity going forward.

It is no wonder, why many people can't sail to the rating and be competitive in a handicap USPN race in a design that Melges raced 20 years ago. Likewise, new designs take several years now to develop fleets on the water AND our US culture drives us to race one design and not really play in handicap races or collect good data.... Without times collected for the first place boat in each class racing the same course even if not the same start ... the USPN calculator can't help. ..Moreover, ... the USPN system sets a very low bar for removing the provisional status from a rating.... Once the rating's provisional status is removed.... the system will only correct it by 25% of the correction a year.... This was a great system for the 60s when these limits were not relevant issues ..... The RYA portsmouth approach is much better for this century.

Whomever is attempting to patch up the USPN table.... should be transparent about how they changed the dixie system..... My recomendaton is simply declare the new table to be fair and accurate and based on the USPN system and let clubs pick the one that makes them happy. Such a declaration would have complete integrity and that is essential to sailor buy in. Once you have buy in..... things can work BECAUSE as Jim C noted "Perhaps the big lesson from that is that handicaps make less difference than most people believe!"

 

[Tcatman]

Few, if any, of these racers would travel for a mixed fleet handicap regatta.

and to emphasize JIm C's point that handicap systems are less important then we think.... Without outside travelers coming to your event expecting a certain playing field... the system chosen is even less relevant. carry on with what works for your members..... Just agree on a rating for any new design that comes to play amongst your selves...

Without travel handicap events on the schedule... a national or regional ratings table is really not that important.

Point 2... This is a sailing culture question.... Would the brits and rest of the euro's travel for a handicap event? In multihulls... the handicap culture in europe is much more accepting.... events like Ronde Texel and the French have a huge handicap event that I know of. Bottom line... .simply great reasons to mess around on boats and the water.

 

[Kazrob]

Great.!!!... Here is the big question... would any of these racers... put the boat on the trailer and do a weekend regatta at another local club racing on handicap?

I know the US is different from the UK, but here handicap racing is such an integral part of general club sailing, that in the winter 100s of people do drag their boats miles to take part in handicap racing all over the country (not just the big Sailjuice series). In teh summer most clubs in the country have an annual regatta with a handicap fleet included. Plus it allows occasional fun stuff like pursuit races to be done.
If you have a club that is keen and has a mixed fleet, do try running a trial series of small course, average lap races using the RYA numbers/system. I'd suggest two 30-40min races a day (or evening), with lots of mark roundings to keep it fun, and see what the sailors think. I absolutely love my club Wednesday night races with a mixed fleet. You're always next top someone to race against (even if you know you are last), lots of mark roundings mean there's always a chance to overtake and once you know roughly how many seconds in 30mins you have to give somebody, you're very aware of racing against the clock.
For boats that aren't listed in the RYA numbers, just chose something from the RYA list that might be close to start with i.e. maybe your Melges 15 is going to be pretty close to our RS400.
If the experiment works, then everyone has fun and it can be developed. If it doesn't, well at least you've tried.
A couple of photos of typical small club handicap races just to show what a mix of boats we typically get

 

[martin 'hoff]

Yeah, we have a ton of fun in Miami with handicap racing of beachcats. It's not the same as class racing. But damn it's fun sailing.

And it's very much better than sitting on land catching up on your video streaming.

 

[Tcatman]

Many, perhaps most, DO travel nearly every Summer weekend to race one-design and a number also travel to regional and National events. Growing fleets - MC Scow - are quite active. Sustaining fleets - Flying Scot, Laser - are steady.

Next question.... are the growing and sustaining travel fleets getting 15 boats on the line for these events... My guess is a regional event gets 5 to 7 one design 's on the line... Clearly small one design turnouts trump larger handicap turnouts. Stuart Walker' explanation emphasizes the pecking order and so you are really only worried about the guy ahead of you in the class and the guy right behind you,,,,that is your race. A 5 boat fleet remains interesting so long as the competition is keen.
So the philosophical question is.... IF The handicap system rating similar kinds of designs ... eg Lasers and force 5's. was fair and accurate... would that handicap race with more racers have more appeal assuming you view them as legit competitors.... OR is Walker right and it is just about the pecking order of the two guys on your level in your class boat because the class itself is a huge factor and it is those 2 specific guys you want to beat or hold off. (So the underlying assumption is that in a good fleet.... you have many groups of three competitors where the competition is pretty close and the pecking order COULD change (if you trained and got better)...obviously a nat champion rock star will not find competition in your club race) I want to believe that with 15 racers on similar classes of boats... you will find more cadres of close competitors and the competition fun factor will be high and different in this handicap world.

Evidence is not on my side! What am I missing?

 

[martin 'hoff]

Evidence is not on my side! What am I missing?

I think SA and this thread focus too much on class racing vs handicap racing.

People come back for fun racing. It's fun if the social group is fun. It's fun if there's boat relatively close in performance so you can get past them, or once you learn who-owes-who you want to get across the finish line within 30s or ahead by more than one minute or...

It's only at higher skill and commitment level that class racing matters so much more that handicap racing is just no fun.

In the handicap fleet I sail with, all beachcats, people crew on eachother boats periodically, so we're all trying someone else's boat as well. This is, in itself, quite interesting and fun.

 

[JimC]

One thing I have noticed is that club fleets are built with great difficulty, typically by charismatic individuals, and fall apart with great ease if the individual departs or changes class. If sailors were really as focussed on class racing as is often stated then as soon as a critical mass is reached fleets would grow and grow. If anything, my observation is that its something of the opposite, and what is more, a firm 'pecking order' tends to be destructive of numbers.

In practice folk seem to be as happy to be racing Fred, who is slower in a faster class, or Jane, who is faster in a slower class, as they are to race someone in the same or very similar class. Now I think of it, I wonder if handicap racing tends to have less intense boat on boat tactics, and thus is less pressured and more relaxing. And thus more fun.

 

[Martin T]

The fun part of handicap racing is the race within the race on the water.
You can have somebody who is not very experienced but is sailing a faster class, having a great tussle with well sailed slower classes.
On the results sheets it shows they were thrashed but the boat on boat action far outweighs the result. They feel they were part of the race not just tailend charlies crossing the finish line miles behind the rest of their fleet, being put off, giving up & never to be seen again.

I regularly have a battle in my Laser Radial (PY 1147) against a Kestrel (PY 1038). Officially he should be miles ahead of me, but the grins & banter as we cross tack & swap places is immeasurable.