Bill5
Right now
Make sure he/she enjoys some social time with the fleet members after racing. A couple beers and talking about what happened on the race course while de-rigging is time well spent for all. The “de-rigger” is my favorite beer.
US Portsmouth v2
- Thread starter Foredeck Shuffle
- Start date
The Q
Super Anarchist
I've never been at a club that didn't run handicap racing, though most ran class racing for their bigger classes.
Part of the reduction of class racing is the ever increasing number of different boats available.
For example , every week there seems to be another go faster boat aiming for the laser single hander market.
Part of the reduction of class racing is the ever increasing number of different boats available.
For example , every week there seems to be another go faster boat aiming for the laser single hander market.
Bored Stiff
Member
Aero and Zero are 9 years old. What has there been since then?
pqbon
Anarchist
Given the number of people that think the ILCA is cutting edge 9 years old is like brandnew!
Blue One
Member
- 92
- 49
There are plenty of people in the UK that think Solo’s are cutting edge. 😀
Luckily we don’t have any body that thinks a Sunfish is 😂😂😀
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
It's a myth that there are more classes than their used to be. Back in the 60s every little local boat builder used to build their own classes with the dream of getting them established and getting rich. A difference, I suppose, was that most of them were never seen out of a 50 mile radius from the builder. We do see a fair number of recreational boats aimed at the club training/new sailor niche, mostly with multiple configurations that are a nightmare for establishing handicaps, but real racers are now quite rare. Topper and Laser largely exiting that market reduces introductions still further too.
Tcatman
Super Anarchist
Once upon a time... these new boat owners were the recruiting grounds for racers. They would start racing their boat informally and then perhaps enter a local distance race and the bug would be firmly set and they would race and eventually upgrade. Do you see newbie racers bubbling up with these rec boats in the rest of the world? In the US... most of these boats will go to driveways, backyards or beach homes... Public launches in the north east are power boat ramps. Dinghy clubs are land restricted and often only allow parking for classes the clubs race. These Rec Sailors might not have much exposure to racing and the bug never gets a chance.
Dillon Waltner
Member
I remember looking for a boat 20 years ago and being amazed at all the choices (the options from Vanguard alone were amazing). In the interim I got divorced, sold all my boats and spent a few years living on the poverty line raising my kid. After some improvement in my financial situation I decided it was time to go sailing again and was mind-blown to find how many boatbuilders have gone out of business, sailing clubs disbanded and even the marina that was THE local sailboat dealer now sells only pontoon and ski boats. Sailing is an endangered species in the US and something needs to change.
lyncht
Member
completely agree. I sail (race) the slowest boat (by design) in mixed fleet evening races, and often I am surrounded by beginners and novices in faster designs. I coach and encourage them, and soon they are clear ahead and another set of rookies fills in.The fun part of handicap racing is the race within the race on the water.
You can have somebody who is not very experienced but is sailing a faster class, having a great tussle with well sailed slower classes.
On the results sheets it shows they were thrashed but the boat on boat action far outweighs the result. They feel they were part of the race not just tailend charlies crossing the finish line miles behind the rest of their fleet, being put off, giving up & never to be seen again.
I regularly have a battle in my Laser Radial (PY 1147) against a Kestrel (PY 1038). Officially he should be miles ahead of me, but the grins & banter as we cross tack & swap places is immeasurable.
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #130
I received a reply from US Sailing about their current support of the Portsmouth rating system.
On 2/2/2023 5:07 PM, Mail Delivery System wrote:
I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system
<[email protected]>: host mx1-us1.ppe-hosted.com[148.163.129.50] said:
550 5.1.1 <[email protected]>: Recipient address rejected: User
unknown (in reply to RCPT TO command)
On 2/2/2023 5:07 PM, Mail Delivery System wrote:
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Date: | Thu, 2 Feb 2023 22:07:51 +0000 (UTC) |
Subject: | Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender |
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<[email protected]>: host mx1-us1.ppe-hosted.com[148.163.129.50] said:
550 5.1.1 <[email protected]>: Recipient address rejected: User
unknown (in reply to RCPT TO command)
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
Its the curse of search on websites: they throw up legacy pages that look current. It seems as if they've retired that address. I think I would just hit their info email address. I note that the announcement pages for PYonline were done by one Nathan Titcomb who appears to have left US Sailing.
tillerman
Super Anarchist
Right. Here is a video of Nathan back in 2020 explaining what US Sailing were doing with PYs. Sounded like a pretty good plan back then.
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #134
First dive into PYOnline.
Just finished transferring all of our clubs results for 2022 into Sailwave and submitting them to PYOnline. I was surprised to find Sailwave to be mostly very intuitive. Where it fell down was a setting to enable D-PN ratings scoring was not well documented.
Once loaded and an event it set up, select Scoring System and turn on USSA Portsmouth, then select either Use single rating values, or Use wind indexed ratings values, under Competitor ratings values, then close. Next open User Interface and select Wind Indexed Ratings, this was not well documented and I fumbled for a while until I saw it.
The rest of the Portsmouth instructions are well documented in the guide, the entire guide is excellent and the best instruction guide I've yet seen in any scoring application. I updated the ratings .csv file to include classes not in the USSDPN files and then entered in over 25 events. I very much liked the way it handled having a Fleet with multiple Divisions and Classes for scoring and publishing the scores, that could not have been easier. The ability to take all of the weekly series events and score them separately and then merge them together into a single series while retaining the weekly scoring and having a summary score it simply brilliant. I'm used to having to export all of that into spreadsheets and do it manually at the end of the season to determine Low/High Point winners. High Point will still require some manual effort but Sailwave took most of the work off and made the overall export very simple.
I'm still not convinced that having no wind ratings is the best way to go, but I understand the argument for the simplicity of a single rating and I applaud the Sailwave/PYOnline integration. It is very good.
Just finished transferring all of our clubs results for 2022 into Sailwave and submitting them to PYOnline. I was surprised to find Sailwave to be mostly very intuitive. Where it fell down was a setting to enable D-PN ratings scoring was not well documented.
Once loaded and an event it set up, select Scoring System and turn on USSA Portsmouth, then select either Use single rating values, or Use wind indexed ratings values, under Competitor ratings values, then close. Next open User Interface and select Wind Indexed Ratings, this was not well documented and I fumbled for a while until I saw it.
The rest of the Portsmouth instructions are well documented in the guide, the entire guide is excellent and the best instruction guide I've yet seen in any scoring application. I updated the ratings .csv file to include classes not in the USSDPN files and then entered in over 25 events. I very much liked the way it handled having a Fleet with multiple Divisions and Classes for scoring and publishing the scores, that could not have been easier. The ability to take all of the weekly series events and score them separately and then merge them together into a single series while retaining the weekly scoring and having a summary score it simply brilliant. I'm used to having to export all of that into spreadsheets and do it manually at the end of the season to determine Low/High Point winners. High Point will still require some manual effort but Sailwave took most of the work off and made the overall export very simple.
I'm still not convinced that having no wind ratings is the best way to go, but I understand the argument for the simplicity of a single rating and I applaud the Sailwave/PYOnline integration. It is very good.
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #135
I made more attempts to reach out, nothing so far. I would have thought that USS would continue to promote PYOnline but...
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #136
Oh, why I used the D-PN ratings? I felt like I needed to first enter all of our events from the old scoring system so that I knew that my efforts to score were correct and were in sync with the existing scoring system. Once that was validated and I had gained significantly more experience with Sailwave, I copied all of the DPN scored events to a new folder, changed the ratings file to the PY .csv, converted any ratings we use to PY and entered them into the .csv, then changed the app to use PY, then changed every boat in every event to PY ratings, then re-scored.
There is one issue when changing the rating system. If there are multiple boats with the same rating, until all but one of the entries have had their class and rating cleared out, you cannot assign the new rating. The app does you a favor and automatically grabs a boat class and rating and puts it into the top of the drop down selection as a quick pre-load. But that means if you have a DPN rating on a boat in the same class, it only offers the old rating, not the new one. You must clear out all boats from that class to enter them in. A hack around it is to change the name of the class in the new .csv, such as using ILCA 7 versus ILCA 7 / Laser, then you can use the new one and it will show up in the pre-load after the first use and the old rating will disappear from the pre-load when the last boat is re-assigned. It's not really a bug, how often would you double score this way?
There is one issue when changing the rating system. If there are multiple boats with the same rating, until all but one of the entries have had their class and rating cleared out, you cannot assign the new rating. The app does you a favor and automatically grabs a boat class and rating and puts it into the top of the drop down selection as a quick pre-load. But that means if you have a DPN rating on a boat in the same class, it only offers the old rating, not the new one. You must clear out all boats from that class to enter them in. A hack around it is to change the name of the class in the new .csv, such as using ILCA 7 versus ILCA 7 / Laser, then you can use the new one and it will show up in the pre-load after the first use and the old rating will disappear from the pre-load when the last boat is re-assigned. It's not really a bug, how often would you double score this way?
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #137
About converting ratings, here is what I have found, the DPN/PY conversions are what USS advised and have a history of use. The DPN/PY to PHRF is from the DPN guide which has the conversion to PHRF, I just used it to make a similar conversion to PY. I have never employed the PHRF conversions.
DPN to PY : (DPN*11.58)
PY to DPN : (PY/11.58)
DPN to PHRF : (DPN-55)*6)
PY to PHRF : (((PY/11.58)-55)*6)
DPN to PY : (DPN*11.58)
PY to DPN : (PY/11.58)
DPN to PHRF : (DPN-55)*6)
PY to PHRF : (((PY/11.58)-55)*6)
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
- Thread starter
- #138
Oh, one lesson learned that I recommend. I initially created a template file to mass copy and rename to use. I went back and changed that template file multiple times until I had a template that met the club's needs. This meant I corrected a number of scored events so that all of them matched. This created a template that I was positive would take as much of the scoring effort off of someone scoring an event with a beer beside them and a bunch of competitors vulturing around wanting to know how they did.
The template I ended up with has all of the boats/skippers/crew registered during the season with a few template competitors to represent the two most common OD's at the club, a Portsmouth template competitor, and a 420's template competitor to score club members that take out the club 420's and race without pre-registration. Five races are preset with everything filled out and ready to have race start times and competitor finish times entered. After about 7 versions of the template and submitting the data I took a try at entering in a years past event that would have a few new competitors and it took me maybe 15+ minutes to score the event with 15 total competitors and 5 races.
I do not believe our club will be moving to PY soon, that will be up to the fleet captain and fleet members to decide. I'm going to dual score PY so that our boats get some history to create better ratings. Then, who knows, but at least we'll have a good path if we choose it. This will also help give us a better idea about ratings that do not have a history that we have had to create or accept from elsewhere but never seem to change.
The template I ended up with has all of the boats/skippers/crew registered during the season with a few template competitors to represent the two most common OD's at the club, a Portsmouth template competitor, and a 420's template competitor to score club members that take out the club 420's and race without pre-registration. Five races are preset with everything filled out and ready to have race start times and competitor finish times entered. After about 7 versions of the template and submitting the data I took a try at entering in a years past event that would have a few new competitors and it took me maybe 15+ minutes to score the event with 15 total competitors and 5 races.
I do not believe our club will be moving to PY soon, that will be up to the fleet captain and fleet members to decide. I'm going to dual score PY so that our boats get some history to create better ratings. Then, who knows, but at least we'll have a good path if we choose it. This will also help give us a better idea about ratings that do not have a history that we have had to create or accept from elsewhere but never seem to change.
The Q
Super Anarchist
Thanks for those formula,
Last year I generated a spreadsheet to calculate a handicap for my home designed and built mini keel boat.
As there are so few of these around the world I was forced to use, PRHF, - RYA - D-PN boats in the spreadsheet, using their sail areas, draft, beam, length and water line length. This gave eventually some formula not to dissimilar to those you have provided and eventually a predicted RYA handicap for my boat.
Just for added fun here in Norfolk they use the "Broads Handicap" a very simple percentage off your finishing time , so the final results had to be converted again .
On that, for instance, an original type laser, rates 10% off the finishing time at my club and my boat 20% it ain't fast...
I'll revisit my spreadsheet and insert your formula, and see what happens...
Last edited:
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
When I did some playing I got a better mapping to the faster and slower boats with this extremely empirical formula:
RYA= (6 + (DPN /16)) * DPN,
but it will equal 11.58 with a DPN a bit over 89.
There were a fair number of classes that didn't seem to map at all well even with the more complex sum though.
