Using your new anchor with kinetic rope

[Gissie]

Anchor manufacturers like Danforth specify a fairly short length of chain - 15' to 20' IIRC - and nylon rode.  The chain both prevents chafe on the bottom and keeps the last bit of tug on the anchor in line with the shaft of the anchor.  The recommended scope is established to put enough catenary in the anchor line to align the boat's tug with the shaft as well.  That's why more breeze or more depth =  more scope.  They do not recommend spaced weights that I've ever seen.  

The typical cruiser's bias towards all chain may have value when anchoring in shallow coral-filled atolls (which is a good way to destroy a reef anyway - so maybe not a great idea), but otherwise is mostly just a pile of unnecessary weight to carry around.  

Having spent five days with 50knts, gusting to 70, there is a reason relying on nylon can be a problem.

 

[Arcas]

Over-engineering solutions are critical on live-aboards. You never know when the $hit hits the fan, and overbuilt anchor + rode setup is essential. Hence the reason most experienced long-term cruisers end up with all chain. We originally had 10m + 100 feet of 8-plait on a 29 foot racer/cruiser. Swapped it out for all chain after 4 months, despite the weight (which did effect the sailing performance somewhat). Made a huge difference in how the boat handled at anchor. Also, it didn't wrap around the keel in wind vs. tide situations. I would never replace it for a dynamic line like the one described in this post. And I'm a climber, so understand the capabilities of these lines.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I've been using 10 M of chain and 200' of 3 strand nylon and no windlass on a 42 footer for two decades.  Only change here is "kinetic rope".  I'm familiar with kinetic ropes for climbing and used ones make good mooring lines as climbers change them often.  Not so sure you need that much stretch (up to 30%)  in an anchor rode.  Imagine being pushed back 30% of your scope by a gust and then "recovering" forward at 2-3 knots once the gust subsides.  Would certainly make you the life of the anchorage.  

During a hurricane we had 150 feet of nylon out in 10 feet of water. It was like a bungee cord ride, the rode stretched WAY out when the gusts would come through and then we would spring WAY back

We had to get the USCG to come out the next day, the anchor had sunk through several feet of mud and was way into the clay. It was not coming loose until 400 HP got connected to the line. The entire chain came up crusted in clay.

 

[Rain Man]

Had a guy with a Contessa 32 in a somewhat crowded but quiet, protected, anchorage tell me to move because I was in his swinging circle.  We were both in about 25' of water.  I asked him how much scope he had out - he said 150' OF CHAIN.  I asked him what he thought that pile of chain sitting in a heap on the bottom was going to do for him.  No response.  I put a shore line out and forgot about him. 

Later I saw him in my local harbour complaining to someone else.  20' of water with good holding.  I casually motored by and said loudly "you're the problem".  

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

 

[European Bloke]

I've seen suggestions from people that I would consider competent that nylon is probably not suitable as a rode for larger boats because it's too stretchy, and polyester would be a better choice for that application.  Nylon is a good choice for shorter lines, such as your snubber line on an all chain rode, or a dock line spring.  I can see the logic in their reasoning.

 

[Se7en]

I've never lay awake at anchor in a blow thinking "I wish I had less chain and more bungy cord"

 

[Sail4beer]

I think I’ll do just fine with 300’ of chain on one anchor and 50’ of chain and regular old anchor line for the other. 
 

If anyone’s yacht survives a blow with kenetic line, please report back.

 

[Huggy Bear Brown]

We are playing with a new idea since anchors are becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

What do I think??  I spend 300 nights a year at anchor as a live aboard and like to sleep well at night in any weather conditions....especially with bad weather coming in at 0300hrs.....  you would never find me using your suggestion for the kind of cruising I do (Caribbean) as I have no idea what you mean by a "new-gen light anchor", not to mention a short chain length and Nylon rope.  And all this to dismiss the use of a windlass??  Why??  This might be a nice solution for a 'lunch hook', but not for anything more than that.

It appears you have a Jeanneau 43DS.....I have a 45DS using a 25kg(55 pound) Rocna anchor and 75 meters (250') of G43 9.5mm (3/8") chain.  I'll set the hook and then use a 10 meter (33') nylon snubber attached to 14mm Dynema/Polyester line that goes to my bow cleat.  I'm at a loss to understand what your point is or what the advantage is of your proposed solution....

 

[basketcase]

so...... a newbie, with one post asks a question..... no traditional greeting. no call to buy an ad. no nothing. fuck have we ever let the standards slip. look at what is going on here and give your heads a shake. dood is trying to find a market for a stupid new name to something we already use. kinetic rope? fuck off, thats nylon triple brade. been around for a yonk's age.  i bet the 'kinetic rope' is in a neon colour. fuck

 

[Sail4beer]

We suck at our job and need re-training

 

[SailingTips.Ca]

What do I think??  I spend 300 nights a year at anchor as a live aboard and like to sleep well at night in any weather conditions....especially with bad weather coming in at 0300hrs.....  you would never find me using your suggestion for the kind of cruising I do (Caribbean) as I have no idea what you mean by a "new-gen light anchor", not to mention a short chain length and Nylon rope.  And all this to dismiss the use of a windlass??  Why??  This might be a nice solution for a 'lunch hook', but not for anything more than that.

It appears you have a Jeanneau 43DS.....I have a 45DS using a 25kg(55 pound) Rocna anchor and 75 meters (250') of G43 9.5mm (3/8") chain.  I'll set the hook and then use a 10 meter (33') nylon snubber attached to 14mm Dynema/Polyester line that goes to my bow cleat.  I'm at a loss to understand what your point is or what the advantage is of your proposed solution....

One way to reduce the weight of an all-chain solution is to go with G7 chain - you can substantially reduce the size of the chain for the same breaking strength.

Or you could probably just reduce the size of the G43 chain and be fine anyways - I recall Evans Starzinger writing somewhere that they used an old piece of 10mm climbing rope as a  snubber with their all-chain solution and expected it to quickly overload and break, but it never did even when anchored in 50+ knot winds, which indicated that the load on the system was generally lower than expected. 

As such I think anchor chains are generally oversized...

 

[Zonker]

I used 10mm climbing rope for our anchor snubber bridle on our 40' cat. It held fine in an anchorage with about 50 knots of wind for a few hours. It was very stretchy but did reduce the shock loading on the rest of the rode a lot. Each leg was about 25' long or so.

Actual measured loads on a 38' catamaran - scroll to bottom for the graphs, but read the article too.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-testing-and-rode-loads

 

[Rasputin22]

Rode is cheap.

 

[Caca Cabeza]

Chain is good to a certain extent. The catenary of the chain and the drag on the bottom helps. Once the chain is straight and bar tight you have lost the advantage and then you need the elasticity of nylon (at that point probably not ballistic nylon). Just regular 15-20% stretchy nylon so not have shock loads on the attachment point(s).

Most stuff that will save your ass and keep you alive is "crazy expensive" until your life depends on it. Then it is cheap at ten times the price.

Just sayin.

 

[[email protected]]

so...... a newbie, with one post asks a question..... no traditional greeting. no call to buy an ad. no nothing. fuck have we ever let the standards slip. look at what is going on here and give your heads a shake. dood is trying to find a market for a stupid new name to something we already use. kinetic rope? fuck off, thats nylon triple brade. been around for a yonk's age.  i bet the 'kinetic rope' is in a neon colour. fuck

I just hope it really helps you, keep it coming after all that's why we are here for.

 

[basketcase]

I just hope it really helps you, keep it coming after all that's why we are here for.

Awesome second post, mate.

 

[Huggy Bear Brown]

One way to reduce the weight of an all-chain solution is to go with G7 chain - you can substantially reduce the size of the chain for the same breaking strength.

Or you could probably just reduce the size of the G43 chain and be fine anyways - I recall Evans Starzinger writing somewhere that they used an old piece of 10mm climbing rope as a  snubber with their all-chain solution and expected it to quickly overload and break, but it never did even when anchored in 50+ knot winds, which indicated that the load on the system was generally lower than expected. 

As such I think anchor chains are generally oversized...

The G7 chain is a great solution for the reasons you stated and I'll check that out next time I need new chain and gypsy.  I run into a couple issues with going to a smaller G7 chain, those being I would need to purchase a new gypsy head to the tune of about $500.  I also have a sourcing issue as the range of G7 is not widely available in the Caribbean at this point and it's quite expensive, even if it is downsized compared to the larger G43.  I also have 40 meters (125') of 3/8" G43  stored in my bilge w/ 200' of 5/8" nylon three strand for my second anchor.  to be useful, I would need to also replace the spare chain with the G7 to fit my new gypsy which would get very expensive......  While chain may tend to be oversized for a lot of boats what we use is prudent for our application as we spend each season the the Hurricane Box.  We had both TS Dorian and Karen pass nearby last season.....I'll take the heavy ground tackle for our application....

The Evans Starzinger PPT was interesting and provided the basis for my current snubber setup.  While I'm currently using three strand and 8 plait (I have three snubbers I use depending on conditions) nylon the climbing rope is interesting and something I want to look into.  He was also using Dynema between the nylon section and his bow cleat for chafe resistance and noise reduction (Nylon gets crazy noisy as it stretches between your bow roller and cleat).

 

[bgytr]

Had a guy with a Contessa 32 in a somewhat crowded but quiet, protected, anchorage tell me to move because I was in his swinging circle.  We were both in about 25' of water.  I asked him how much scope he had out - he said 150' OF CHAIN.  I asked him what he thought that pile of chain sitting in a heap on the bottom was going to do for him.  No response.  I put a shore line out and forgot about him. 

Later I saw him in my local harbour complaining to someone else.  20' of water with good holding.  I casually motored by and said loudly "you're the problem".  

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

7 to 1 is what I was taught as the standard.  You can get by with less in benign conditions of course.   But if you're in a crowded anchorage and the wind comes up at night and everyone needs to let out twice as much rode, then everyone in that anchorage is in a dicey situation.

 

[Huggy Bear Brown]

I used 10mm climbing rope for our anchor snubber bridle on our 40' cat. It held fine in an anchorage with about 50 knots of wind for a few hours. It was very stretchy but did reduce the shock loading on the rest of the rode a lot. Each leg was about 25' long or so.

Actual measured loads on a 38' catamaran - scroll to bottom for the graphs, but read the article too.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-testing-and-rode-loads

Thanks for the post Zonker......great article and solid/helpful information.  I'll look into the climbing rope option.....

 

[SailingTips.Ca]

The G7 chain is a great solution for the reasons you stated and I'll check that out next time I need new chain and gypsy.  I run into a couple issues with going to a smaller G7 chain, those being I would need to purchase a new gypsy head to the tune of about $500.  I also have a sourcing issue as the range of G7 is not widely available in the Caribbean at this point and it's quite expensive, even if it is downsized compared to the larger G43.  I also have 40 meters (125') of 3/8" G43  stored in my bilge w/ 200' of 5/8" nylon three strand for my second anchor.  to be useful, I would need to also replace the spare chain with the G7 to fit my new gypsy which would get very expensive......  While chain may tend to be oversized for a lot of boats what we use is prudent for our application as we spend each season the the Hurricane Box.  We had both TS Dorian and Karen pass nearby last season.....I'll take the heavy ground tackle for our application....

The Evans Starzinger PPT was interesting and provided the basis for my current snubber setup.  While I'm currently using three strand and 8 plait (I have three snubbers I use depending on conditions) nylon the climbing rope is interesting and something I want to look into.  He was also using Dynema between the nylon section and his bow cleat for chafe resistance and noise reduction (Nylon gets crazy noisy as it stretches between your bow roller and cleat).

For my application I found that G7 has a similar link size to BBB (not sure if this is always the case) so I suspected there were some old unused gypsies laying around from when people upgraded their chains to G43. So I posted what I was looking for on a cruising forum and voila - somebody had one laying around and sent it to me for the price of shipping!