USPHRF Appeal Process

[sailman]

Does anyone have any experience with this process? Application calls for a ton of data?

 

[Somebody Else]

Application calls for a ton of data?

How else would they decide?

Your sterling reputation?

 

[sailman]

Else, understood. Do they look strictly at the empirical data or do they also compare it to known PHRF boats as well?

 

[LionessRacing]

Depends on your region. In NorCal committee is several sailmakers, two designers and a few racers. They assess boat's performance and factors such as how far out of first and third in sec/mile as well as age of rig, sails and crew. If you are protesting another boat, or trying to improve your own rating, burden is on you to show it's the boat, not the sails, prep or or sailors that merit a change.

 

[sailman]

Lioness, I am talking about when all appeals on the regional level are exhausted. Each region has its own procedures and these must be completed before USPHRF will accept an appeal.

 

[LionessRacing]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

 

[dcbsheb]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.

 

[Bcam]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.

And that's because the water is denser some places than others? Or the air is a different temperature?

In most of the races I have participated in, all the boats were on the same course with the same conditions. Not sure why a J-35 (the old standard) would be faster or slower depending on which body of water she was sailing in.

I always get a kick out of the local guys (Chesapeake, Bay Area, KW, Puget Sound) who will state, with no sense of irony, "If you can sail here, you can sail anywhere!" As if their home waters held the secret to sailing.

 

[LionessRacing]

Having ratings adjustments for different courses is perhaps a sensible thing.

The Bermuda Race and Pacific Cup probably are more alike than W/L on Berkeley Circle.

Yet PHRF is not guided to rate boats consistently at an (inter)National level.

For all the many flaws the measurement rules have, at least they are agnostic on locale. ORC doesn't change with position, though fhere are multiple numbers the Race organizers can pick from to best match anticipated conditions.

 

[Streetwise]

US Sailing introduced national reference ratings for a good number of boats this year. The list has been useful to our local committee.

 

[sparwars]

Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Does anyone have any experience with this process? Application calls for a ton of data?

Looking to improve the West Indies rating?

 

[barleymalt]

Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.

What he said, but it also depends on what you are appealing, i.e. published process not followed, flawed analysis, invalid conclusion or reason for an adjustment (or lack of one). Race data, specific measurement data for your boat, details of prep and sail inventory, valid certificates from measurement based rules like IMS, ORR that can be used for benchmarking, known (production) boats that you feel are a good comparison to yours are all data that can help the Appeals Committee. Remember that the local PHRF authority will also have an opportunity to defend their decision.

 

[dcbsheb]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.

And that's because the water is denser some places than others? Or the air is a different temperature?
In most of the races I have participated in, all the boats were on the same course with the same conditions. Not sure why a J-35 (the old standard) would be faster or slower depending on which body of water she was sailing in.

I always get a kick out of the local guys (Chesapeake, Bay Area, KW, Puget Sound) who will state, with no sense of irony, "If you can sail here, you can sail anywhere!" As if their home waters held the secret to sailing.

Maybe a J 35 does perform the same in differing conditions around the country, but not all boats do. Some perform much better in light air, some are heavy air rockets because they were designed to perform well in Northern California's predominantly windy conditions. Local PHRF committees typically rate boats based on how they perform against others in their local area.

Here's a news flash for you: If you don't like the rating system, sail one design.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.

And that's because the water is denser some places than others? Or the air is a different temperature?

Why no... of course the air is exactly the same temperature (and thus density) everywhere, at all times!

In most of the races I have participated in, all the boats were on the same course with the same conditions. Not sure why a J-35 (the old standard) would be faster or slower depending on which body of water she was sailing in.

I always get a kick out of the local guys (Chesapeake, Bay Area, KW, Puget Sound) who will state, with no sense of irony, "If you can sail here, you can sail anywhere!" As if their home waters held the secret to sailing.

Sorry, can't resist sarcasm. But it is a fact that conditions ARE different in different regions. Some bodies of water are choppy, some have more consistent wind or are often light air, etc etc. Take any two production boats, one will be better in chop, one (probably not the same one) will be better in light air... those two boats need to be rated differently against each other in the Chesapeake versus SF Bay.

This is one of the strengths of PHRF. It also entails one of the weaknesses, local committees basing ratings on personality rather than numbers. Oh well.

Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.

What he said, but it also depends on what you are appealing, i.e. published process not followed, flawed analysis, invalid conclusion or reason for an adjustment (or lack of one). Race data, specific measurement data for your boat, details of prep and sail inventory, valid certificates from measurement based rules like IMS, ORR that can be used for benchmarking, known (production) boats that you feel are a good comparison to yours are all data that can help the Appeals Committee. Remember that the local PHRF authority will also have an opportunity to defend their decision.

Bingo. Data is your friend.

FB- Doug

 

[Parma]

Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.

And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.

And that's because the water is denser some places than others? Or the air is a different temperature?

In most of the races I have participated in, all the boats were on the same course with the same conditions. Not sure why a J-35 (the old standard) would be faster or slower depending on which body of water she was sailing in.

I always get a kick out of the local guys (Chesapeake, Bay Area, KW, Puget Sound) who will state, with no sense of irony, "If you can sail here, you can sail anywhere!" As if their home waters held the secret to sailing.

The fairness of a boat's rating is not inherent; the fairness of that rating comes from the relationship of that boat's rating to the rest of the local fleet.

For example an ULDB will not do as well upwind in heavy air and chop/swell versus its competitors as it will in flatter inland waters.and smaller boats get killed off shore in chop but can sail to their rating in smoother more placid conditions.

So different regions with different conditions should have different ratings for the same boats. Ideally US sailing would have a national database according to 3 different wind strengths in 3 types of conditions for 3 types of courses.

 

[dcbsheb]

Agreed. Hence the differences between a national or international measurement based handicapping system and a regional performance based system.

 

[musicman]

The fairness of a boat's rating is not inherent; the fairness of that rating comes from the relationship of that boat's rating to the rest of the local fleet.

Very good point. So (hypothetically of course) you would imagine that if you had a boat with a delta to a well known benchmark boat that was the same in two neighboring regions there would be a very good chance in a third region (an immediate neighbor with identical conditions) it would maintain that delta or at least be close. Correct?

 

[jesposito]

The fairness of a boat's rating is not inherent; the fairness of that rating comes from the relationship of that boat's rating to the rest of the local fleet.

Very good point. So (hypothetically of course) you would imagine that if you had a boat with a delta to a well known benchmark boat that was the same in two neighboring regions there would be a very good chance in a third region (an immediate neighbor with identical conditions) it would maintain that delta or at least be close. Correct?

Not when you are dealing with PHRF of Western LIS.

Or maybe they are close and the other regions are off?