USPHRF Appeal Process

Parma

Super Anarchist
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here
The fairness of a boat's rating is not inherent; the fairness of that rating comes from the relationship of that boat's rating to the rest of the local fleet.


Very good point. So (hypothetically of course) you would imagine that if you had a boat with a delta to a well known benchmark boat that was the same in two neighboring regions there would be a very good chance in a third region (an immediate neighbor with identical conditions) it would maintain that delta or at least be close. Correct?
You might. Keep in mind that PHRF ratings initially stem from boats with similar specifications that can thereafter be adjusted by the local board according to actual observed performance.

So it's very possible that a benchmark boat fully optimized and sailing with professionals who've been in the boat for a long time could have an inverse rating to a different benchmark boat sailed in a different but neighboring region which is also fully optimized and sailing with professionals who've also been in the boat for a long time.

I did a calculation a long time ago that a professionally crewed and optimized boat would generally outsail its competitors ratings by about 20 seconds a mile.and therein arises the argument about golf handicaps - fair or not?

 

Dawg

Moderator
7,862
1
Does anyone have any experience with this process? Application calls for a ton of data?
Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.
And do you ask for comments from competitors?

Like do they maintain and prep their boat?

Do the start properly?

Do they over stand the weather mark layine?

Do the over stand the gybe layline?

Do they round the mark in a seam like fashion?

Do the really know how to sail?

Oh yea, are their sails good or shit?

There are many things that go into the question, Is a boats rating Fair? I know many of these questions should be asked at the local level but many times are not,

 
Good luck with that. The various regions don't even agree on base handicaps in some cases. Lioness rates better in NE than SF.
And that surprises you why? It makes perfect sense that different boats would have different ratings in different regions of the country. It's because boats perform differently in different conditions and weather patterns and sea conditions vary around the country.
And that's because the water is denser some places than others? Or the air is a different temperature?
In most of the races I have participated in, all the boats were on the same course with the same conditions. Not sure why a J-35 (the old standard) would be faster or slower depending on which body of water she was sailing in.

I always get a kick out of the local guys (Chesapeake, Bay Area, KW, Puget Sound) who will state, with no sense of irony, "If you can sail here, you can sail anywhere!" As if their home waters held the secret to sailing.
Maybe a J 35 does perform the same in differing conditions around the country, but not all boats do. Some perform much better in light air, some are heavy air rockets because they were designed to perform well in Northern California's predominantly windy conditions. Local PHRF committees typically rate boats based on how they perform against others in their local area.

Here's a news flash for you: If you don't like the rating system, sail one design.
and if you like a day out sailing and don't care about the results, sail PHRF

If the results matter to you, agree with shleb, sail one design.

 

Dawg

Moderator
7,862
1
I hereby make a motion that you ask all those questions.

Is there a 2nd?
If at the local/regional level they are not asking this, then that is what is wrong with PHRF.

It is a Racing Fleet? not a cruising fleet

 

Movable Ballast

Anarchist
6,201
250
San Diego
Haters gonna be haters. PHRF allow thousands of boat and tens of thousands of sailors to compete on a relatively even playing field. There are by far more PHRF sailors than one design.

Joe six pack buys a Catalina 30 and plugs around the bay for a few years before he enters his first race in the JAM fleet and has some fun. He sees other C30's going much faster than he is and asks them how they do it? They share they're knowledge with Joe and Joe and Joe get's his bottom cleaned before the next regatta. Joe does better, Joe puts an add in the local pages for crew, Joe get's a new plastic #1 and with a bit of luck finishes well up the fleet. A new racer is and new crew born. How awesome is that.

As to a boats rating if you are losing in PHRF by minutes it ain't your rating... As in one design the best prepped and best sailed boats win most of the races in any given fleet. If on the other hand an average sailed boat is spanking everyone all the time there are plenty of avenues to has that boat's rating reviewed (I've done it). I've race PHRF and OD for years and it always ends up the same. When my crew and I sail well we do well, when we don't we don't.

Buy a boat that fits well into your local conditions, when the conditions are not in your favor you open a beer and do the best can and think about the time you crushed the fleet when the condition were perfect for your boat.

C'mon guys it's fricken sailboat racing, supposed to be fun.

 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
4,364
598
Myrtle Beach,
"Buy a boat that fits well into your local conditions, when the conditions are not in your favor you open a beer and do the best can and think about the time you crushed the fleet when the condition were perfect for your boat.

C'mon guys it's fricken sailboat racing, supposed to be fun."

When you sail a boat that's an obvious misfit vs rest of fleet, GLORY in the one or two races a year where you might meet your rating.

"our sacred lady of waterline length, we beseech you no short tacks in less than 10 kts"

 

scarlet

Member
116
0
Haters gonna be haters. PHRF allow thousands of boat and tens of thousands of sailors to compete on a relatively even playing field. There are by far more PHRF sailors than one design.

Joe six pack buys a Catalina 30 and plugs around the bay for a few years before he enters his first race in the JAM fleet and has some fun. He sees other C30's going much faster than he is and asks them how they do it? They share they're knowledge with Joe and Joe and Joe get's his bottom cleaned before the next regatta. Joe does better, Joe puts an add in the local pages for crew, Joe get's a new plastic #1 and with a bit of luck finishes well up the fleet. A new racer is and new crew born. How awesome is that.

As to a boats rating if you are losing in PHRF by minutes it ain't your rating... As in one design the best prepped and best sailed boats win most of the races in any given fleet. If on the other hand an average sailed boat is spanking everyone all the time there are plenty of avenues to has that boat's rating reviewed (I've done it). I've race PHRF and OD for years and it always ends up the same. When my crew and I sail well we do well, when we don't we don't.

Buy a boat that fits well into your local conditions, when the conditions are not in your favor you open a beer and do the best can and think about the time you crushed the fleet when the condition were perfect for your boat.

C'mon guys it's fricken sailboat racing, supposed to be fun.
This.

It's all pickle dishes that corrode. For me, now that I am not quite the angry young man I used to be, any racing is fundamentally social. One Design, Frostbite, PHRF.

I want no one on my crew I don't like. I don't want to sail with anyone I don't like.

Simple. get your ass out there and have fun.

 

Parma

Super Anarchist
3,017
410
here
PH is about sailing about you like not a boat that is like everybody else's.

OD is about sailing a boat that is like everybody else's but not a boat that you like.

Like, wow man, dude.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,556
10,261
Eastern NC
Does anyone have any experience with this process? Application calls for a ton of data?
Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.
And do you ask for comments from competitors?

Like do they maintain and prep their boat?

Do the start properly?

Do they over stand the weather mark layine?

Do the over stand the gybe layline?

Do they round the mark in a seam like fashion?

Do the really know how to sail?

Oh yea, are their sails good or shit?

There are many things that go into the question, Is a boats rating Fair? I know many of these questions should be asked at the local level but many times are not,


I hereby make a motion that you ask all those questions.

Is there a 2nd?
Wait, before calling the question there should be more discussion. The questions listed cover the important objectives, but miss the MAIN ISSUE which is entirely subjective.

"What is FAIR?"

Many PHRF racers assume the goal of the system is a FAIR race, meaning that all competitors have an equal chance of winning. That is, in fact, impossible for any given race in a given set of conditions. PHRF would need to be hellishly more complex to allow for factors of wind strength & chop & percentage on which points of sail (this last issue is why many clubs have different ratings for distance races vs round-the-buoys).

The goal of many local PHRF committees is to attempt a fair series or season, so that over a variety of conditions every type boat will get her chance to win a share of races. No individual race is really fair, yet everybody gets a chance to say "well my boat does poorly in light air/upwind/reaching parades/whatever, so this wasn't our race anyway." Everybody is a winner in their own mind. Everybody should be happy with the results. It's a social event.

FB- Doug

 

sailman

Super Anarchist
8,334
443
Portsmouth, RI
Steam,

I think it would be nice if the evaluation of each boat was consistent. A fair, transparent and unbiased process would eliminate a lot of the headaches. Unfortunately local politics and biases contribute to a mistrust of the system.

Will Museler

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,556
10,261
Eastern NC
Turd Sandwich said:
A three rating system like they do in SoCal should be standard. I would add in three adjustments for velocity and the world would be A OK

Modern light displacement boats created this mess for the most part and really magnified the horses for courses problems in PHRF

Back in the IOR days when for the most part only waterline length and sail area were the big factors cause they all were pigs sure made it a lot easier
Well, the nice thing about PHRF is that it's simple. One number to rule them all, and in darkness bind them enter, easy math, adjust that number for local conditions by people who are most familiar (and presumably most interested in a FAIR result). The bad thing about PHRF is that it's simple.

Everybody was sailing pigs, check. PHRF is a great system for racing CataBeneHuntalinas around the cans, or to a weekend cookout destination.

Steam,

I think it would be nice if the evaluation of each boat was consistent. A fair, transparent and unbiased process would eliminate a lot of the headaches. Unfortunately local politics and biases contribute to a mistrust of the system.

Will Museler
Well, local committees do have the US Sailing PHRF Rating Database to go on. Whether they use it or not... have you volunteered to assist them administering the system? FWIW I agree that a problem is that local committees are very inconsistent. However if you can give them lots of data about your type of boat's performance against other common boats, then that would be a good start.

Disclaimer: I do not currently own a PHRF boat and rarely race in PHRF these days on OPBs... I do race one-design and daysail for enjoyment (and volunteer with two youth sailing groups)... thinking about a big-ish boat for my wife & I, plus friends now & then, -maybe- we would race it.

FB- Doug

 

scarlet

Member
116
0
Does anyone have any experience with this process? Application calls for a ton of data?
Ive been involved in a couple as an appeal committee member for US Sailing/PHRF.

Complete data is essential. We dont know your boat. We assess the local decision and any appeal.

We also look at the boat. Race results are looked at. Local rating process is looked at.

To keep my reply short: make our job easier with all the material you can gather.
And do you ask for comments from competitors?

Like do they maintain and prep their boat?

Do the start properly?

Do they over stand the weather mark layine?

Do the over stand the gybe layline?

Do they round the mark in a seam like fashion?

Do the really know how to sail?

Oh yea, are their sails good or shit?

There are many things that go into the question, Is a boats rating Fair? I know many of these questions should be asked at the local level but many times are not,


I hereby make a motion that you ask all those questions.

Is there a 2nd?
Wait, before calling the question there should be more discussion. The questions listed cover the important objectives, but miss the MAIN ISSUE which is entirely subjective.

"What is FAIR?"

Many PHRF racers assume the goal of the system is a FAIR race, meaning that all competitors have an equal chance of winning. That is, in fact, impossible for any given race in a given set of conditions. PHRF would need to be hellishly more complex to allow for factors of wind strength & chop & percentage on which points of sail (this last issue is why many clubs have different ratings for distance races vs round-the-buoys).

The goal of many local PHRF committees is to attempt a fair series or season, so that over a variety of conditions every type boat will get her chance to win a share of races. No individual race is really fair, yet everybody gets a chance to say "well my boat does poorly in light air/upwind/reaching parades/whatever, so this wasn't our race anyway." Everybody is a winner in their own mind. Everybody should be happy with the results. It's a social event.

FB- Doug
As an ex PHRF Handicapper, the conclusion I came to is that if PHRF is working well, everyone gets screwed equally over the course of a few seasons. That's the best you can hope for in a mixed fleet with random weather and arbitrary courses.

Go sailing and have fun.

 

Dawg

Moderator
7,862
1
Turd Sandwich said:
A three rating system like they do in SoCal should be standard. I would add in three adjustments for velocity and the world would be A OK

Modern light displacement boats created this mess for the most part and really magnified the horses for courses problems in PHRF

Back in the IOR days when for the most part only waterline length and sail area were the big factors cause they all were pigs sure made it a lot easier
The three rating system I would like to see is based on Light, Medium and heavy winds.

Not course

Buoy, Random Leg (very subjective) and Off the wind which is not very often.

Boats move differently in the wind strength not the course.

But that would mean measurements and all the stuff that makes a rating system fair and honest.

So Much for PHRF

As an ex PHRF Handicapper, the conclusion I came to is that if PHRF is working well, everyone gets screwed equally over the course of a few seasons. That's the best you can hope for in a mixed fleet with random weather and arbitrary courses.

Go sailing and have fun.
Spoken like a true Politician.

I hope you are not re-elected to your Crony Position.

 

Parma

Super Anarchist
3,017
410
here
Boats move differently in the wind strength not the course.

uhhhh....wut?

Is that why the powered up sporties have OW ratings that vary so widely from their buoy rating?

or why smaller boats find it easier to sail to thieir rating offwind in swell more so than upwind in swell?

 
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silent bob

Super Anarchist
8,931
1,437
New Jersey
Naval architect Carl Schumacher had it right when he said, “There will be days when the conditions suit your boat, and you have a good chance of winning. The other days, just enjoy a good sail.”

 

jesposito

Super Anarchist
I think one of the real problems PHRF committee's face, is that people don't fully disclose and fully report modifications and changes that are made, they report them in a Bill Clintonian way.

Most importantly with that, it's hard for committee's to evaluate fair ratings

 


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