Vendee Globe 2020

[bosshawg]

15 hours ago, yl75 said:

Alex raw video is still (or back) on dailymotion :

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x7wx99w

Gone!

I wonder what is being protected.  I suspect that a cat was let out of the bag in the video.

 

[NZK]

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! h34r:

Here's a theory:

I think the HB team may have just crossed the line away from the 'romanticized'/traditional ocean racing style of previous Vendee's and put it squarely in the same ball park as the AC in terms of the technological approach. Fully enclosed cockpit, multiple sensor/camera arrays and even VR/headset systems to view and control sails and foils with windows for not much more than not going fucking mental inside your 35 knot operations centre.....

IMOCA boats have been getting more and more technical and reliant on sensors to manage rig and hull loads plus cockpits become more enclosed as speeds and deck-wash increase but the new HB is the first to seemingly throw the ball completely into the 'technology' paddock. If successful I reckon this could be a similar switch in IMOCA designs as we saw in the Cup with the AC72s/AC50s into the foiling and 'oil pumping' generation and with the switch will come the same split in opinions of whether it counts as 'real' sailing or just button pushing and grinding. 

Admittedly with the variety in the IMOCA/Vendee fleets in terms of budgets this won't be an immediate and all-encompassing switch but I think for top teams it might be the case (the Ultimes are pretty much going this way too looking at recent deckhouse designs - except Thomas Colville who likes to stick his head out of the sunroof at 40knots like an excited labrador).  

 

[Lakrass]

Where Miffy says "Hugo Boss has broken no foils" one could add "but hasn't been seen competing in many races yet." Many of the other boats with relatively new and large foils have actually done quite a few races with them by now, some of which have included some quite rough conditions and Arkea stands out for me as the "unlucky" one for foil breakage. Also Juan K. rightly or wrongly, always seems to be given a hard time on SA!

Just trying to be objective amongst the huge HB fan club here, but surely the foils on HB and those on Arkea have many similarities. For example, chord, thickness, length, area, center of area when extended, etc. and are both very different from almost all others for which chord and thickness reduces towards the ends, center of area is closer to the boat and flexibility increases towards the tips (like for a fast aeroplane wing). Presumably the loadings will be essentially the same on both HB and Arkea? Those on HB presumably could even be a bit higher if HB is faster? so unless there is some magic in the structural engineering and manufacturing of HB's foils which has escaped the Arkea team, for me the risk would seem very similar for both boats. Arkea could even have an advantage having seen how their previous broken ones failed?

Harking back to 2008-9 and looking at the only 30% finishing fraction then, and trying to be objective, I reckon the individual odds for any particular new generation boat getting to the finish must be way less than 50/50. For me there is no clear odds on favourite for the race win but based on actual racing performances Charal and Apivia are the ones most likely to get round and so one of those two might win.

The guessing game which makes this race so fascinating!

Look the same is far from work or behave the same, especially when made out of carbon. Arkea foils have been reinforce but it is by adding layers of carbon on top of the existing, it's not structurally as strong as building the same at once. Depending on the optimization (shape and materials) vs load, there can be very significant differences in the performances and resistance of similar looking foils.

On the other hand, it's better to break them before the race, it gave time to Arkea to address the issue. Let's hope they have learned their lessons and those will hold. The concern is not that they broke a foil, since they might have underestimated load or its characteristics but that should have been studied and addressed for second pair which it wasn't. That clearly put a question mark about their understanding of the loading and their ability to optimize construction of their foils accordingly.

Don't wish them any more breakage and I rank Corum and L'Occitane higher in my risk table but we'll see. Unlikely that all boats will finish but we might still see record ratio of finishers/starters.

 

[staysail]

Regarding similarity of Arkea and HB's foils: they might look similar on the outside but may be structurally very different. They are from 2 different design teams so I'd be surprised if they are similar given that HB and Arkea may have different sailplans and definitely have different hull concepts.

I guess you have a point that new designs have a higher risk of not making it to the finish line. But IIRC it's also true that the last 2 VG's were won by newly designed boats.

Structurally different, maybe, but structurally "very different"?

Comparing two hydrofoil cross section beams, both of constant and similar external envelope cross section area, approximately the same maximum thickness and chord dimensions and having the same basic load-bearing material of construction, i.e. carbon fibre, the structure designers for Arkea and HB are constrained pretty tightly with design options to build a foil with a specific target strength, flexibility and weight. And if both boats have similar all up weight and similar target speeds, the lift forces they expect from the foil must be very similar for each. It will be very interesting to see if HB foil design holds up for the distance.

Anyone know why Corum went for foils of a very different concept from those on Arkea?

 

[JonRowe]

Structurally different, maybe, but structurally "very different"?

See the AC threads, but the first pass at doing foil arms for the AC75 did not pass their load test, so they failed and the teams redesigned the structure internally, the resulting arms look externally very similar to the ones that failed but with a completely different laminate schedule they are structurally very different, heavier and stronger.

 

[JonRowe]

Anyone know why Corum went for foils of a very different concept from those on Arkea?

Arkea's original foils caused a rule interpretation by the class outlawing them, and they were subsequently modified to pass class rules again, Corum was a later build and presumedly skipped the invalid foil configuration?

 

[staysail]

See the AC threads, but the first pass at doing foil arms for the AC75 did not pass their load test, so they failed and the teams redesigned the structure internally, the resulting arms look externally very similar to the ones that failed but with a completely different laminate schedule they are structurally very different, heavier and stronger.

Sure but with a known and very similar cross section for a load-bearing beam (i.e. Arkea and HB)  there is a very limited choice as to where the load bearing material can be placed within the cross section and how it can be oriented. With their size and shape similarities HB and Arkea both need to come up with essentially the same answers in terms of strength and flexibility, weight also being a consideration. Sure if a designer has underestimated the loads and made a foil which is too light the foil will break. If the cross section is big enough it can be built stronger and heavier without changing the section. If however the concept is flawed, for example if the overall lifting surface area is too great for the length and thickness, it could be impossible, with the allowed materials, to make a strong enough assembly.
The race will be the proving ground!

 

[F18 Sailor]

Staysail,

  I think the key point is the HB team has actual foiling loads from their 2016 boat, while the Arkea team was starting from scratch, as was their designer. If they managed to reuse the tooling between v2 and v3 I don’t know, but there can be a significant amount of additional structure added not only to the laminate but to the shear web to make a design that appears too thin work with the existing 6 figure tooling.

 

[bosshawg]

No pictures of the recent changes made to the HB foils yet?

 

[RedFlag]

HB foils are full (as in solid) carbon since V1.

Arkea tried 2 versions of hollow foils before reverting to (mostly) full foils for V3. Which quite certainly cost them a lot in bulb weight as well, because of the increased weight of the foils...

Structurally, hollow means that there are shear webs inside the profile. Full means that the solid material itself is the "shear web".

 

[Miffy]

Arkea's original foils caused a rule interpretation by the class outlawing them, and they were subsequently modified to pass class rules again, Corum was a later build and presumedly skipped the invalid foil configuration?

The issue was their foil control system - once it became known before the start of the TJV, an interpretation question was raised and by Arkea’s system was not in compliance. 

 

[Roller Skates]

Here's a theory:

I think the HB team may have just crossed the line away from the 'romanticized'/traditional ocean racing style of previous Vendee's and put it squarely in the same ball park as the AC in terms of the technological approach. Fully enclosed cockpit, multiple sensor/camera arrays and even VR/headset systems to view and control sails and foils with windows for not much more than not going fucking mental inside your 35 knot operations centre.....

IMOCA boats have been getting more and more technical and reliant on sensors to manage rig and hull loads plus cockpits become more enclosed as speeds and deck-wash increase but the new HB is the first to seemingly throw the ball completely into the 'technology' paddock. If successful I reckon this could be a similar switch in IMOCA designs as we saw in the Cup with the AC72s/AC50s into the foiling and 'oil pumping' generation and with the switch will come the same split in opinions of whether it counts as 'real' sailing or just button pushing and grinding. 

Admittedly with the variety in the IMOCA/Vendee fleets in terms of budgets this won't be an immediate and all-encompassing switch but I think for top teams it might be the case (the Ultimes are pretty much going this way too looking at recent deckhouse designs - except Thomas Colville who likes to stick his head out of the sunroof at 40knots like an excited labrador).  

There was a big moment for a bit where Joyon went the opposite route, and had some serious success for a decade. Streamlining down to the essentials. I'm very much excited to see the "compression" after this cycle. What works? What are the real energy needs? What can be repaired at sea?

After how many electrical failures we've seen in past versions - more complexity isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

[NZK]

There was a big moment for a bit where Joyon went the opposite route, and had some serious success for a decade. Streamlining down to the essentials. I'm very much excited to see the "compression" after this cycle. What works? What are the real energy needs? What can be repaired at sea?

After how many electrical failures we've seen in past versions - more complexity isn't necessarily a good thing.

I was wondering after I wrote this whether there would be a push-back from some of the French sailors against the technology? This is perhaps being a bit judgmental and I think given the campaigns run by Charal, L'Occitane etc they'd be willing to commit to whatever is proven to be fastest. 

Also, yes - electrical reliability is set to be a huge factor. Hopefully Boss (and the other teams) have made enough allowances for redundancies.... 

 

[jb5]

http://www.courseaularge.com/vendee-globe-sauts-technologiques-impressionnants.html

If we compare with the previous Vendée Globe, the changes are concentrated in three main areas: instrumentation, which hardly existed four years ago, and which, thanks to numerous sensors, gives you time real loads which weigh, for example, on the foils , the rudders and all the cables; automatic pilots, which allow the boat to be steered according to several parameters desired by the skipper, via what is called a system of overlays, specially designed by the team; communication, with new more reliable antennas and above all allowing better throughput.

You don't have to be an engineer to get an IMOCA moving quickly, but it's a plus to have technical background or you need experience. By dint of sailing,  you are able to detect when it exceeds the limits of the boat and therefore when it needs to ease off, even before the alarms sound. It is obvious that in terms of IT and electronics, our profession has changed compared to the first Vendée Globe. You also spend less time composing the boat or repairing fittings, because the equipment is more reliable and the crew's readiness is higher. "

I'm from the GPS generation and Grib files, but when I prepared for my first Vendée Globe in 2008 with Pierre Lasnier, he wanted to teach me how to do the tour of the world without a grib file in case I had been deprived of it. So to predict the weather forecast based on the barometer, the water temperature, the shape of the clouds… And in the end, I had to use all of that for the (last) Vendée Globe. At first, I wondered how I was going to do it and gradually it almost became a game. "

Today, everyone is talking about the shapes of the foils, the performance of the boats, but two weeks before the start of the Vendée Globe, you begin to realize that it's still a crazy adventure, that you will find yourself at the top of the cliff and that you will have to jump. And there it is only the mind but also physics, because the new boats, built around foils, and therefore able to fly in many conditions, have become much more demanding than their predecessors were, requiring a very high level of sport preparation ...

 

[jb5]

 

[yl75]

Regarding technology, which skippers do you think are the most of a"handyman" type, and in which domain ?

Kevin for sure is, at least for deck gear and composite stuff, not sure about electronics and computers/software.

Jeremie says in an interview that the "bricolage stuff" is not his forte, (it was compared to Gabart and Armel, who both have an engineering degree and also are quite handy), but that he has made progress.

How about Alex ?

However now with the quality communication channels they have, they are allowed to have shore assisstance, and so can receive detailed trouble shooting or fixing procedures I think.

Parlier repairing his mast in NZ was something ! :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/D46BYHKDG361LYRY01CD2U/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

With heat for the epoxy from lamps :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/8Q5I6227U46IELG09SB52Z/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/yves-parlier-vendee-globe-exclusives-images.html

He also built a raft to go grab some mussels, as he was allowed to go to shore below the upper tide limit :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/ZSAFYJ9O39N15F35BA6DT3/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

The size of the satellite antenna of the time is also impressive :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/6P10X44BET43P2291T2D3D/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

(mich dej starting his engine with themain sheet as well, and winning the race doing it as well).

 

[Miffy]

I think a lot of it will just simply depend on the depth of the support team - there are so many items that can go wrong these days, having the spares already pre-installed or bypass procedure designed and documented will make any sleep deprived skipper seem brilliant. 

Didn't update the firmware before leaving & robustly testing it and run into a bug or incompatibility issue with something as silly as a datum change? Not much you can do about it once under way no?

 

[SSolo]

I think a lot of it will just simply depend on the depth of the support team - there are so many items that can go wrong these days, having the spares already pre-installed or bypass procedure designed and documented will make any sleep deprived skipper seem brilliant. 

 

The pre race 'PPPPP' and the spares taken will be very important.
These very impt spares that are going on the Vendee  come from darkest depths of Northumberland... namely English Oak i logged a number of years ago and is also used in our new house   So i will be there in tree,  if not body

 

[Miffy]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CG2h9srgAVy/?igshid=167r7hl5oay2t

 

[OPAL]

Parlier repairing his mast in NZ was something ! :

Legend.