Vendee Globe 2020

DVV

Member
89
60
Italy
So what's the Wednesday summary?

1. Arkea Paprec hit something and broke a foil/bearing/casing 
2. No news is good news on board Apivia?
3. LinkedOut is hobbled but not really showing signs of weakness 
4. Louis Burton putting in some serious miles in the south that no one else is trying at the moment
I'm a noob. I know I should just stay quiet and read. Still, I did not found anything on this so I'm giving it a try, please do not kill me ;)

As you said, LO is being quite fast also with a damaged foil. In last edition HB almost won with a broken foil for the majority of the race.

And, foils seem to brake quite easily when hitting OFNI, and forces generated by them seem quite difficult to manage by the designers.

Are we sure that the difference in speed we see is due to the foil and not to other evolutions of the last designs? Are we sure foils are here to stay? It seems to me - but, being a noob, what do I know?! :)  - that foils are something that sometimes reappear in the sailing world, it happened many times before, but at the end, it always generates more problems than solutions.

Does this makes sense to you? Now back in silent mode..

 

littlechay

Super Anarchist
1,139
520
Nelson
astro said:
Yeah sure, it's nature breaking their boats.

Not garbage, right ...
There is a lot less garbage in those latitudes than in the parts of the oceans surrounded by the more populus landmasses in the the north. Currents, basically, don't cross the equator so most of the trash stays north. It is still about of course but it is usually broken fishing gear (Hugo Boss) plastic bags, and polystyrene that I see though. 

 
It seems possible that they encounter more UFO this year in the south as the ice zone pushes them north where there is more commercial traffic, containers just as Ruyant in 2016.

As foils grow larger the surface under the water is also larger even if the overall wetted surface is reduced.

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
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And, foils seem to brake quite easily when hitting OFNI, and forces generated by them seem quite difficult to manage by the designers.
Bit more precise, they get damaged and do not breake off easily. Maybe breaking would be better for the loads on the structure. And with daggerboards we did see breakage too. And keels.  And masts, they always find something new to break...
The difficulty for engineers are the unknow unknows. It is all a big experiment.

 
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Herman

Super Anarchist
1,926
1,047
The Netherlands
First, thanks for all the positive feedback regarding my rant on threaddrift, nitpicking, toxic trolling attitude and keeping this thread bearable to read. I have decided not to turn away from the forums yet. I won't have time in the days though, as I have to build a surprise for a family member for Sinterklaas. Or Santa Clause, as the Americans who stole this dude more or less from the Dutch call him. It's an old tradition in our family to give self-made presents to each other, with a poem. Further, I have to write another 8 poems with end rhyme before Saturday afternoon. Hopefully I can pick-up stuff in the beginning of next week. * out * 

This is the goal;

image.jpeg

Regarding some reactions see below how I feel about them.

Three days now I've just been getting into the looking at your routing, and let myself get distracted. 

Hmmm. Rather than walk away, shall we start our own weather routing thread? Many of us like that part. You fill the UTC +1 slots nicely, Hitch and I are -6 or 7, and some down under are +11 or thereabouts. Looks like there are quite a few others who can contribute content, rather than sneers.

What say you? I think you should start it, or I can if you prefer.
Starting a separate thread that I can moderate myself seems the way forward.

Message to Herman and stief:

Please don't go away...
Thx

Agree. Was dreary without him when he left the VOR threads. Few here spend the three hours per day looking at the routing so carefully and sharing the work.

oops--apologies Laurent. Forgot to mention the years and hours you've spent keeping the FR reports accessible for us. 
FIFY

I agree....Like taking a college class, but I'm learning
:)

Also my understanding. 

Thats why you’ll have to register your PLB the same way you register an EPIRB - it is a small EPIRB. The AIS MOB unit is “registered” by programming it to identify itself over digital VHF. 
Who cares?

"Having GPS just means it can send useful data over AIS."

With no GPS there is NO fucking AIS PLB.

@shanghaisailor this is your fucking fault and mess I'm cleaning up here.  :D

406 PLB's batt last more than a few hours and are subject to the same parallel, but different regulations as EPIRB's that allow them to utilise the GMDSS system. Regulatory differences include switching and testing etc. They are NOT a toy. 

Jon is right the term overloaded.

Pilot is dead right about confusion.

There is misinformation generated innocently by people like Shang and you Jon. There is also the bullshitters like Turd.  

The historical aspect and love of common names by regulators and the market is the starting point to this fuckup that cooks the brain of normally sensible people.

______________

First there were EPIRB's and there still are EPIRBs with only regulatory change the wireless spectrum they use. They are used to make vessels GMDSS compliant.

First there are MOB Beacons or MOBB's

The MOBB's were proprietory unregulated wireless products involving a base station on the vessel and a wearer beacon. At a nominated distance away from the base station an alarm would sound on board for a MOB.

They had no location ability. 

_________________

Then when 406 MHz EPIRB standard arrived around 10 years some industry bright spark came up with a small EPIRB personal device to use that spectrum and access the GMDSS network. Regulators went OK and regulations drafted country by country just like the EPIRB.

The regulations parallel but different. The PLB term was coined by industry and or with the agreement of regulators. 

So far so good PLB name one (1) device.

____________________

Then some industry bright spark thought about using AIS VHF spectrum to create a AIS personal locator beacon. The communication regulators obliged and marine safety regulators to allow it to access the GMDSS system but not part of compliance which applies to vessels. So other than spectrum licencing not a lot of regulation.

So manufacturers thought we shall call it a PLB too. At that point they should have taken the wireless MOB Beacon and added some locator indicator like MOBLB but the fuckwits didn't. Hence the confusion starts. 

So same PLB name for two (2) completely different devices.

______________

Now same industry bright spark thinks up a dual 406 and AIS personel locator beacon. However these are not yet approved or produced.

These are MORE regulated than AIS PLB's. Some enthusiastic manufacturers produced online brochures for something that doesn't exist. Idiots like Turd with armchair sailing experience grab hold of that shit and sprout their bullshit here as gospel.

So now same PLB name for three (3) completely different devices. If approved I doubt the PLB name will survive. Industry and regulators will come up with something to differentiate like DUO PLB or some shit.

_______________

So no wonder the fucking confusion and so many fucking posts here.

Hopefully that's the fucking end.
Very exhausting Jack, I don't give a shit if you are right or wrong. But's toxic troll masculinity in it's purest form for me. Thanks for proving my point exactly. I'll have blocked you like Random, including mentions and messages. Welcome to the hall of fame. 

These are the best polars for the virtual boats:

http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/

You can also download the polars from there if you want to play with them.

Zezo is great for free routing.

The virtual boats seem comparable to the 2016 edition's new boats.  Top-end speed is 22-23 kts.  But can sail at speed in heavy conditions without worries about sea state or breakage (and current also isn't relevant), which evens the odds.  The virtual fleet took an early lead, all the way through Theta, but then AT and the other newest-gen foilers sailed away from the virtual fleet after that for a while.  The virtual fleet has caught back up now, with AT having his problems and several boats slowing to help with the rescue, mostly by being able to sail near the ice limit in heavy conditions without concern for breakage (beyond Burton's route).  The lead pack is currently Southeast of Dalin.

Gabart, Peyton, Le Cleach, Lipinski, Riou, and a bunch of other pros are doing it, and many of them are taking it seriously and doing well.  Alberto Bona is the leader among "certified" participants.
As indicated up thread, I use these for routing set @ 102 percent for latest generation boats and foilers.

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
13,031
4,009
The Netherlands
Herman, maybe a new topic only about weather routing. Makes it easier to to look at older predictions.
And quoting trolls etc does not help, I have ignored a bunch, but your quote gets them back. Snipe at them without naming them :)

 
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Bebmoumoute

Anarchist
535
1,101
Southampton, UK
Another one that deserves more attention is Damien Segiun, the man is doing a fantasctic race with his 2008 boat : https://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire des 60'/F18.htm

(former DCNS - sistership to one of the old Hugo Boss? - used to have the twin roof).

First disabled person to take part in the VG (he was born with only one hand), the guy is a 5 times world champion and 2 times paralympic champion in 2.4mR. The only adaped piece of kit it the winch column, that has a bespoke moulded sleeve to he can operate it despite his missing hand.

He trained with Yoan Richomme and his boat was preapred by some guy called Jean Le Cam...

Photos before and after the roof was modified.

Ap 2018 10 26 StM (184).jpg 2020 09 26 Lo (11).jpg

 
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Another one that deserves more attention is Damien Segiun, the man is doing a fantasctic race with his 2008 boat : https://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire des 60'/F18.htm

(former DCNS - sistership to one of the old Hugo Boss? - used to have the twin roof).

First disabled person to take part in the VG (he was born with only one hand), the guy is a 5 times world champion and 2 times paralympic champion in 2.4mR. The only adaped piece of kit it the winch column, that has a bespoke moulded sleeve to he can operate it despite his missing hand.

He trained with Yoan Richomme and his boat was preapred by some guy called Jean Le Cam...

Photos before and after the roof was modified.

View attachment 411462 View attachment 411461
Yep - massive kudos to this guy - to even contemplate doing this race, and actually doing it. Humankind could stand to learn a lot from this guys feats - regardless of where he finishes.

 

DVV

Member
89
60
Italy
Bit more precise, they get damaged and do not breake off easily. Maybe breaking would be better for the loads on the structure. And with daggerboards we did see breakage too. And keels.  And masts, they always find something new to break...
The difficulty for engineers are the unknow unknows. It is all a big experiment.
Yes.

Not a new territory, though. The evolution of Moths faced similar issues, but apparently with a different timeline.

From 'standard' hull to scow bows and large hulls. And then from scow bows to slim hulls with foils.

But, moths have a huge moving ballast, and they are designed for flat waters where OFNI or waves are not an issue.

What if scow bows would not have been banned, like in minis? Would we see more scows and less foils?

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
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they will look at the data and stories from Armel to see if scow works.

Another story Romain is passing his partner knowing she has a damaged boat... must be tough.

 

tallyho

Member
224
89
Norway
image.png

I think this picture of Sam's boat says a lot;

-Leverage of an impact at +/- 20 knots towards the tip of that foil must be huge, and difficult to engineer for when you are trying to be as light as possible

-Older boats have a very low frontal profile. The frontal profile of these foils are waaay bigger in comparison.

 

cortosam

Member
130
131
nantes, France
It's in French.
Basically he doesnt talk about Vendée Globe, but of his sailing carreer, still feels a lot of ressentment for the way his Banque Populaire project came to an end.

He talked about hitting the whales, two times, and the second time when they had to give up the Trophée Jules Verne.

And the friendship with Caudrelier with whom he won the VOR, and all other sailors

 

DVV

Member
89
60
Italy
they will look at the data and stories from Armel to see if scow works.

Another story Romain is passing his partner knowing she has a damaged boat... must be tough.
Occitane is a Scow. But one with foils. It looks to be quite specialized to use of them: the hull seems to have low form stability, due to its round shape. All the righting force appears to be done by foils, on the opposite there is (was) Corum, which is almost a flattie with a keel, with a huge form stability. Am I wrong?

I was thinking about something like Corum with a Scow Bow.

 

shaggybaxter

Super Anarchist
4,538
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Australia
Considering inert objects won't respond to sound blasting through the water, I'm struggling to think of a remedy for the collisions. 

I keep thinking of my collision with a whale. It was only at 10-12 knots and it felt just like a car crash, yet the only damage was abrasions to the leading edge of the keel thanks to the pressure release valve on the hydraulics (swing keel) and a minor oil leak of the primary seal that needed repairing months later.

So, is such a mechanism even possible within the foil boxes? Maybe we have to just accept the resultant weight penalty? 

This modern rubbish strewn world we live in isn't going to change overnight, and 5 or 6 figure euro dollar sponsors might get a tad pissed off when their advertising dollars disappear in a third of the time expected. 

I'm probably talking utter shite, just thinking should this be possible in the realm of hydraulics as a load absorption mechanism? 

After all, it's not like it's unique to Imocas......

Ginga-waterjet-hydrofoil.jpg

More than 80 passengers were reported injured, several seriously, after a hydrofoil ferry apparently struck a whale while underway in the Sea of Japan on Saturday.

The high-speed hydrofoil, named Ginga, was underway from Niigata, Japan to Sado Island when the vessel struck what the ferry operator said appears to be “marine life”.

The impact was strong enough to send passengers flying into seats in front of them.

The operator, Sado Steam Ship Company, said there were 121 passengers and four crew members on board at the time. Six people were transferred to a hospital with serious injuries, the company said in an apology.

The vessel arrived at Sado Island under its own power but about an hour behind schedule.

The waterjet-powered Ginga ferry has a top speed of 46 knots, according to the operator’s website.

 
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tallyho

Member
224
89
Norway
Occitane is a Scow. But one with foils. It looks to be quite specialized to use of them: the hull seems to have low form stability, due to its round shape. All the righting force appears to be done by foils, on the opposite there is (was) Corum, which is almost a flattie with a keel, with a huge form stability. Am I wrong?

I was thinking about something like Corum with a Scow Bow.
round shape...

image.png

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
13,031
4,009
The Netherlands
the hull seems to have low form stability, due to its round shape.
Initial stability comes from beam (and keel), like standing with your legs spread, does not matter much if your feet are round or not.
Even with foils Armel can tell how a fuller bow works.

 
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