VOR 2017-18

jack_sparrow

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Jack, I love ya.  Don't ever change.  I am just going to love you to death this round.  Fuck beer, Vodka or go home.
For a man who has relatively speaking only been following this show, or anything RTW for that matter for all of 5 minutes...let alone got out of your own lake...you are a FFOK (Fuckin Font of Knowledge) Bucmeister.

 
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jack_sparrow

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Ugh, what I get from the interview is Witt is an amateur amongst pros, and lacks the cleverness of social skills to figure out how to have women on the team even though there is a consensus that larger mixed crews will be faster. His thoughts on crews in general seem properly old school, valuing commitment over competency. Talking about loyalty and respect is lovely,  but in the great teams  in any human enterprise, loyalty and respect arise naturally out of the competence of the leadership. If you have to mention them you're doing it wrong. 
Think you maybe over complicating it with the women bit. Witt is a wanker but a very talented one on a lot of fronts, but with limited RTW experience and most of his offshore experience is in his own pond, and whilst 90/100' the last few years, Syd's was not big a budget show, yet Witt made it happen. 

However he has got RTW experience on board to counter all that.

That said he will be shattered by this Race Zero outcome and the best thing that should have happened to this team. He will respond to this speedbump...he is not an idiot and is certainly not an amateur. Don't forget this team has  some very serious money behind it, probably more than any other and has two stopovers in a corporate backing sense (Aust and HK) to boot.

 
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Presuming Ed

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Lifejackets were mandatory. Nothing to do with VOR, Cowes Week Race Committee were flying flag Yankee for all competitors.
And very sensible too, given just how gusty it was. Bramblemet must have been massively under reading for some reason. The stronger gusts must have been about 27 ish knots, and with the ebb as well. 

Big boats only today. Round the Nab, AIUI. 

 

bucc5062

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For a man who has relatively speaking only been following this show, or anything RTW for that matter for all of 5 minutes...let alone got out of your own lake...you are a FFOK (Fuckin Font of Knowledge) Bucmeister.
You really know how to sour the milk Jack, but that's okay.  It must have been your childhood.

 

jfunk

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I think leg 4 and 6 from Aust to China, China to NZ will be the roughest leg for the crew. While the southern ocean is physically harsh, going from southern hemisphere to north and back thru that region will just be brutal for navigation and avoiding garbage and becalmed conditions. Not exactly downwind trades either so it'll be brutal. 

Assuming they do the usual skipper and navigator are floating - 5 people split between watch is just hell. 

He's going to either have to swallow the humble pie now and hope good women are willing to sail with a fuckwit that calls them a social experiment, or be a joke during the race. 

Personally I wish all the experienced qualified women, a small community that talks, sign with other teams or are too busy and let him eat his own medicine for being a prick. 
I think I have worked out who you are Miffy!!

 

bucc5062

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I disagree. I think Legs 3 (Cape Town - Melbourne) and Leg 7 (Auckland - Itajai) will be the toughest.

The Last Time the Fleet raced from Cape Town to Melbourne only 3 Boats arrived fully intact in Melbourne: ABN AMRO 1 & 2 and Pirates.
It goes to show that when you put a F1 on a dirt track, something's going to break.

Surprised neither mention leg 2, Lisbon to Cape Town.  It is the second longest leg, right out of the blocks.  multiple climate zones, crossing the equator, and after all that still having to catch some southern ocean action.  That will be quite the grind and an inexperienced and tired crew could make costly mistakes.  Unless he winds up swapping crew, those 7 guys will be hurting by the time the get done with the second in-port race.

The SO sections will be tough, not so much for the sailing, but the staying warm.  Cold sucks the energy out of you and if they're bouncing off an ice limit, moving stacks many times....ugh, not sure I'd want to be on that boat after a while.

 

 

Francis Vaughan

Super Anarchist
I disagree. I think Legs 3 (Cape Town - Melbourne) and Leg 7 (Auckland - Itajai) will be the toughest.

The Last Time the Fleet raced from Cape Town to Melbourne only 3 Boats arrived fully intact in Melbourne: ABN AMRO 1 & 2 and Pirates.
You need to remember that these failures were boats, not crew. Pirates were not exactly whole either.  The had an unscheduled stopover to fix the keel ram - which resulted in the keel being locked in the centre. The ABN boats admitted they kept their breakages secret, but that they did have a host of keel issues as well.  Compared to the VO70's (especially these first gen VO70s) the VO65 is a truck.  The only way they break is if you do the breaking. There is no reason to think that they will break any easier this time around than last time. The VO65 has shifted the emphasis firmly onto the crew, and how well they perform. For better or worse the boat isn't what will limit a leg.

 

jbc

Anarchist
4 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Talk about a wet day.
 


I could watch this all day. I know there are folks here who go on about the VO65 being slow, but having grown up racing conventional boats I can't see it that way. And yeah, I realize that they're kind of the "Laser Radial" vs. the VO70's standard Laser, but I'm still way impressed by sailors on a big monohull getting firehosed while overtaking the wavetrain.

I thought that brief shot of TTOP pushing up Scallywag was interesting. I wanted to see more of that interaction. It sort of looked like Scallywag was backing off, willing to let TTOP go ahead of them, but hard to say without seeing more of it. Since TTOP ended up finishing two places ahead they obviously got by them at some point, but I don't know if that was a critical moment.

 
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Miffy

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I think I have worked out who you are Miffy!!


123.jpg

 

staysail

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You need to remember that these failures were boats, not crew. Pirates were not exactly whole either.  The had an unscheduled stopover to fix the keel ram - which resulted in the keel being locked in the centre. The ABN boats admitted they kept their breakages secret, but that they did have a host of keel issues as well.  Compared to the VO70's (especially these first gen VO70s) the VO65 is a truck.  The only way they break is if you do the breaking. There is no reason to think that they will break any easier this time around than last time. The VO65 has shifted the emphasis firmly onto the crew, and how well they perform. For better or worse the boat isn't what will limit a leg.
I guess designers and builders don't like any publicity of boat damage, which is understandable, but certainly secrecy seems the norm when it comes to structural failures and design and gear failures. With a fleet like this, all maintained at "the Boatyard" there must be more opportunity for secrecy regarding damage and repairs than with more normal races. We know of one case (only one?) of hull delamination after just one short roughish North Atlantic trip, but the repair was only known about because it was done away from "the Boatyard" and could be seen by looking over a fence. It wasn't mentioned in any VOR news that I recollect. I should be very surprised if these boats have not all collected their fair share of repairs, and/or unseen and unrepaired damage. Carbon composite hull testing and NDT in general, is far from a perfected science as yet. I don't think we folk outside the Organisation can know enough to accept they are the "unbreakable trucks" which you suggest, even though they have low RM, and for sure the Organisation is not telling us about defects and repairs; why would they?
I really don't see why having a realtively slow and overbuilt boat should put emphasis on the skill of the crew! rather it seems obvious that the opposite applies and differences in crew skill are far more critical when the boats are more powerful and more highly stressed.

I guess I am amongst those who admire the skill of fast car and fast motor bike racing drivers and haven't quite been captivated by truck racing, but each to their own.

 
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southerncross

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I wonder how a new V70 would hold up built to today's standards, build process and materials?

There was a lot of canvas up in those shots.  Reminds of the rounding of the Horn last go around when all the boats hoisted a full suite.  They're a good looking boat, the V65, trying with all their might to bust out and let loose but alas, look reined in by design.

Looking forward to the next generation.

 

bucc5062

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I guess designers and builders don't like any publicity of boat damage, which is understandable, but certainly secrecy seems the norm when it comes to structural failures and design and gear failures. With a fleet like this, all maintained at "the Boatyard" there must be more opportunity for secrecy regarding damage and repairs than with more normal races. We know of one case (only one?) of hull delamination after just one short roughish North Atlantic trip, but the repair was only known about because it was done away from "the Boatyard" and could be seen by looking over a fence. It wasn't mentioned in any VOR news that I recollect. I should be very surprised if these boats have not all collected their fair share of repairs, and/or unseen and unrepaired damage. Carbon composite hull testing and NDT in general, is far from a perfected science as yet. I don't think we folk outside the Organisation can know enough to accept they are the "unbreakable trucks" which you suggest, even though they have low RM, and for sure the Organisation is not telling us about defects and repairs; why would they?
I really don't see why having a realtively slow and overbuilt boat should put emphasis on the skill of the crew! rather it seems obvious that the opposite applies and differences in crew skill are far more critical when the boats are more powerful and more highly stressed.

I guess I am amongst those who admire the skill of fast car and fast motor bike racing drivers and haven't quite been captivated by truck racing, but each to their own.
While the VO70 had moments of more raw power and speed, in doing a quick google search there is not strong evidence that overall performance was that much greater than the VO65 so I'm wondering what you mean by truck?  A VO65 broke a round Britain record set by a VO70.  If I find it I'll update, but I remember reading someone involved with the VOR stated the speed differences between the VO65 and the VO70 was only around 15% so I could see the comparison more like NASCARS Sprint Series (VO70) to the Xfinity Series (VO65).  

 In 2010 the VO70 Groupama 70 (former Ericsson 4) broke the record for the Round Britain and Ireland Race in 5 days 21:26:55. This record was broken by the VO65 Abu Dhabi in the 2014 race to 4 days 13:10:28.
Perhaps the deeper point is that while fast(er) may be cool, you ultimately have to finish the race and other than piling a VO65 on a reef (not the boat's fault), all boats that started finished, including DF with a mast swap.

So they are overall not that dissimilar in speeds with the nod to the raw power the 70 could carry, but the fragility of the 70 did take crew handling even slightly more out of the equation simply because...they broke.  Besides, none of these boats are planing or going ludicrous speed all the time so crew handling still plays a factor in both.  I tend to lean on the idea that making it so the boat would be hard to break (look what DF had to do to break a mast), crew handling from skipper on down is that more important on winning.

 
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nroose

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If I am not mistaken, there were cases on the VO65 and on the VO70 in which the way the crew was sailing the boat had an unintended consequence of breakage. I guess all of those issues are better known now since it is the second edition of the OD VO65. But in some cases, you can't really separate the crew work from the boat breakage. Conditions will also matter when breakage happens, and the boats are not always in the same conditions.

 
Great footage
Great indeed, particularly because I think it shows why Mapfre did so well, at least during that portion of the race.  It had the best sail plan for the conditions, a reef and two smaller headsails, skating along, no bow plunging like many of the others. Most of the footage of the other boats doesn't show the upper end of the rigs, but they all appeared to be using larger headsails alone or in combination.  Dongfeng seemed to be persisting with a similar sail plan to the one that caused its mast to break in the last race??? Just observing.

 

jack_sparrow

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I wonder how a new V70 would hold up built to today's standards, build process and materials?
If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 

 

bucc5062

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If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 
5e8.jpg


cause your always so good with images.

Next up, Jack states that experimental airplanes are faster than commercial planes, they just don't last so long.  Sure is an obvious comparison to make.

Of course those damn ladies might not feel the same way...

http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/volvo-ocean-65-boat-1

Then there is this statement

 

'The Volvo 65 are never going to be faster than the Volvo 70, but there are some conditions in which they will be close to the VO70 performance. 
http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Ocean-Race--Rob-Salthouse-compares-VO70-with-new-one-design-VO65/132240?source=google


but maybe even more important..they actually can finish a race (gasp!)

Please Jack, don't turn into this guy.  We all love ya here and clinging to the past...well, it ain't healthy

9rYVxqH.jpg


 

staysail

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If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 
+1 and the subject will never be a dead horse bucc!

The only way an old 70 could be made slow enough to sail as a training boat with a new 65 was by severely restricting its keel movement! Wonder why?

 

southerncross

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If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 
Don't have to convince me Jack.  Would never happen but a new hull build would probably be lighter, stronger/stiffer.  Modern rig and sail set > Beast.

 
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