VOR 2017-18

staysail

Super Anarchist
2,131
334
^ Mad. Someone who doesn't equate "simply didn't make it", with winning a VOR leg in a one-design.

 
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NORBowGirl

Super Anarchist
1,674
160
I can only speak for myself, but I'm kind d of tired of hearing that there should be a female team. I'm not against it of course, but I think they have tried their best and simply didn't make it. Probably many don't make it. It's not necessarily about gender. And almost forcing the teams to add women is a great opportunity for female sailors.
You just don't seem to understand just how hard this race is or just how well Sam Davies' crew did in the last VOR. None of the girls had ever done a long ocean race together before joining SCA. Sam was not permitted to choose or train her crew until after the actual event started. Before the SCA project started up I think some of the girls had never even raced at night in the oceans! Few of them had ever sailed high perfomance canting keel boats before. Ask youself if any of the other crews had the same situations to deal with? What did you expect to see?

Under the circumstances it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about ocean racing that they would generally come last. Any male crew put together the same way with the same level of experience would have done the same.

Their performance in the event was actually spectacular. They improved steadily, leg by leg, as they got more and more ocean miles under their belts, and they scored a fantastic triumph by winning in the leg to Lorient. Winning a leg means beating all other crews, i.e beating all the men in the event!! If you have forgotten, check out the weather for that leg, check out the tactics and check out the lead at the finish. The girls sailed the tough upwind leg better and more agressively than all the male crews and basically p*****d all over them!

If you followed that and you still feel you own sex is inherently inferior at ocean racing I just think you are missing something!
"Didn't make it", as in "Couldn't find a sponsor". That was what we were talking about here right now. Try to focus. so yes, many teams want to go but can't find a sponsor. Ok? SCA has obviously tried, it's not like they sit there and expect a sponsor to just turn up.

I seriously think Dee is indeed trying hard - , but it would be just great if a wise, influential, and well-connected individual i.e. yourself, is lobbying hard on her behalf instead of just whingeing at anyone who doesn't share your pc opinion. I would just love to see a real female entry with an optimum number of crew members racing against all male teams of 7 each; and i think I can guess which team would show the best ROI!
She's presenting on a boat show in Gothenburg this coming Saturday. I'm going, and if she doesn't talk about this new crew rule in her presentation, I'll try to ask her after.
Maybe you should do a facebook live interview with her.
That's actually a cool idea! I'll hunt her down and ask :)

 

Potter

Super Anarchist
2,116
355
I can only speak for myself, but I'm kind d of tired of hearing that there should be a female team. I'm not against it of course, but I think they have tried their best and simply didn't make it. Probably many don't make it. It's not necessarily about gender. And almost forcing the teams to add women is a great opportunity for female sailors.
You just don't seem to understand just how hard this race is or just how well Sam Davies' crew did in the last VOR. None of the girls had ever done a long ocean race together before joining SCA. Sam was not permitted to choose or train her crew until after the actual event started. Before the SCA project started up I think some of the girls had never even raced at night in the oceans! Few of them had ever sailed high perfomance canting keel boats before. Ask youself if any of the other crews had the same situations to deal with? What did you expect to see?

Under the circumstances it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about ocean racing that they would generally come last. Any male crew put together the same way with the same level of experience would have done the same.

Their performance in the event was actually spectacular. They improved steadily, leg by leg, as they got more and more ocean miles under their belts, and they scored a fantastic triumph by winning in the leg to Lorient. Winning a leg means beating all other crews, i.e beating all the men in the event!! If you have forgotten, check out the weather for that leg, check out the tactics and check out the lead at the finish. The girls sailed the tough upwind leg better and more agressively than all the male crews and basically p*****d all over them!

If you followed that and you still feel you own sex is inherently inferior at ocean racing I just think you are missing something!
Whilst, to a certain degree, I agree that the management of SCA was bad; the truth is that they were always fast upwind, and that leg was completely upwind. My biggest disappointment is that they followed it up with another last. They did not sail the boat any harder than the other teams, they just made no mistakes tactically.

They, also had a handicap downwind for the whole race, by sticking to the maximum crew they constantly had the heaviest 'stack', obviously a benefit to righting moment upwind, but it meant they were the heaviest boat for the whole race.

I am a little confused by the argument you have been making. You like the all-female crew, but not the idea of mixed. Is that right?

One of the arguments for the mixed rule is that the lack of experience cannot be overcome unless the women are able to race within a more experienced mens team. Surely the aim is to increase the level of experience in under 30s and women until we get to the stage that the rules are not required, but the danger, and likelihood, is that without this rule there would be no women in the next race.

So are you saying that you would prefer there to be no rule, and therefore by extension possibly no women?

 

staysail

Super Anarchist
2,131
334
^

I agree with much of what you say, however for the Lorient leg to me it looked as if it was won by Sam taking a bold approach to sailing upwind in strong conditions. The obvious (to me) best tactical choice, and incidentally the toughest. Something which all other skippers elected not to do. The girls won that leg by a big margin, and it wasn't the boring AIS fest which dominated the other legs.

That leg proved as a fact that it is possible in one design big boat ocean racing for a women's team to beat all the men's teams and it was no fluke!

That performance showed that there is no reason why women need positive discrimination. The SCA exercise simply demonstrated that regardless of gender, the sailors need practice in real conditions. Something the girls crew were woefully short of compared with the others at the start. It was all coming good towards the end of the event, but SCA by that time had had their "pound of flesh" and pulled the plug.

You rightly point out how important overall boat weight and stacking weight is, and that there can be too many people on these boats, (as well as obviously enough, too few). The answer is very simple. Let the skippers choose how many crew they need. Women being normally a bit lighter and less physically strong than men, will likely choose to sail with a numerically larger crew. Having a rule which dictates equal crew numbers on the boats discriminates against women, and having by rule, more women allowed than men was seen as discriminating in favour of them (!) last time. The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.

And, no I have nothing against mixed crews. I would love to see a female led project with a female skipper selecting a mixed crew and including say, 2 or three blokes. That would create massive public interest.

What I am against is the continuing total male domination of the event, and I think the present rule will only result in male skippered boats carrying a couple of token women. OK that will allow a few girls to get some experience but in essence it will be the "same old boys" running the show at all levels, and the public will not even notice the female involvement.

I would love to see Dee being selected by a big commercial enterprise to front up a high profile VOR project with herself or another girl selected by her as skipper, and I have no problem if she also selects a few guys on the crew. That boat would have the best ROI, and I and many others will be glued to the next VOR if that happens. If Dee sails as a "trimmer" on a majority male crewed boat I won't even bother following the event, and I think Dee deserves better than that.

 

bucc5062

Super Anarchist
2,042
217
United States
^

I agree with much of what you say, however for the Lorient leg to me it looked as if it was won by Sam taking a bold approach to sailing upwind in strong conditions. The obvious (to me) best tactical choice, and incidentally the toughest. Something which all other skippers elected not to do. The girls won that leg by a big margin, and it wasn't the boring AIS fest which dominated the other legs.

That leg proved as a fact that it is possible in one design big boat ocean racing for a women's team to beat all the men's teams and it was no fluke!

That performance showed that there is no reason why women need positive discrimination. The SCA exercise simply demonstrated that regardless of gender, the sailors need practice in real conditions. Something the girls crew were woefully short of compared with the others at the start. It was all coming good towards the end of the event, but SCA by that time had had their "pound of flesh" and pulled the plug.

You rightly point out how important overall boat weight and stacking weight is, and that there can be too many people on these boats, (as well as obviously enough, too few). The answer is very simple. Let the skippers choose how many crew they need. Women being normally a bit lighter and less physically strong than men, will likely choose to sail with a numerically larger crew. Having a rule which dictates equal crew numbers on the boats discriminates against women, and having by rule, more women allowed than men was seen as discriminating in favour of them (!) last time. The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.

And, no I have nothing against mixed crews. I would love to see a female led project with a female skipper selecting a mixed crew and including say, 2 or three blokes. That would create massive public interest.

What I am against is the continuing total male domination of the event, and I think the present rule will only result in male skippered boats carrying a couple of token women. OK that will allow a few girls to get some experience but in essence it will be the "same old boys" running the show at all levels, and the public will not even notice the female involvement.

I would love to see Dee being selected by a big commercial enterprise to front up a high profile VOR project with herself or another girl selected by her as skipper, and I have no problem if she also selects a few guys on the crew. That boat would have the best ROI, and I and many others will be glued to the next VOR if that happens. If Dee sails as a "trimmer" on a majority male crewed boat I won't even bother following the event, and I think Dee deserves better than that.
I think I remember Sam Davies saying she wish she did not have 11 crew members for weight and space. I to feel there needs to be a minimal crew contingent for safety reasons (sleep, rest, watch), but the idea of managing the mass of the boat via crew numbers is laughable. The amount of water that hit the deck of a boat, stays in the cockpit, negates a worry that adding or subtracting 120 lbs plus gear and staples would matter. A boat that weighs in 500 lbs more than another can still beat a lighter boat, just by not making as many mistakes. Blown tacks, bad steering, wrong choice of sails...the list is endless on how you can slow a boat down outside of weight.

As to NORBowGirl's thought about "all this talk"...without it, the idea would fade and I do not think that would be good for Sailing as a whole. To survive in the mainstream of media attention, sports need diversity and visibility. To halt the progress of Sailing becoming a boutique sport, the challenge is to expand involvement, not allow it to shrink. Different nationalities, different races, and yes, different genders thriving at the top of the sport so that mix propagates down into the base. SCA fired up and inspired woman around the world in many ways, but in one big part, getting them more active in the sport.

SCA dropped the ball, but by keeping this in the public eye, perhaps some company or sponsor with better vision can see how a all female or majority female crew, led by a female skipper can give them great ROI, but continue to inspire.

 

staysail

Super Anarchist
2,131
334
The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.
What have happened through the years, without a rule? Would you say that this freedom has led to more female volvo sailors?
I believe there were rules about having fixed and equal crew numbers before the last edition. According to Wikipedia, "Each of the entries has a sailing team of 9 professional crew". That rule could have been written to ensure it would be a male-only sport.

 

NORBowGirl

Super Anarchist
1,674
160
The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.
What have happened through the years, without a rule? Would you say that this freedom has led to more female volvo sailors?
I believe there were rules about having fixed and equal crew numbers before the last edition. According to Wikipedia, "Each of the entries has a sailing team of 9 professional crew". That rule could have been written to ensure it would be a male-only sport.
Having women was optional and a free choice, and nobody chose to. EOD.

 

nedev

Member
75
1
By now I'd almost be in favor of banning all women from the VOR... Just so it would be possible again to have a more or less interesting thread about the race and the teams here on SA.

(btw, what about transgenders in sailing? aren't they also a discriminated and underrepresented group that deserve a place in professional sailing?)

 

Schakel

Dayboat sailor
2 questions, looking for answers;

I'm wondering if a crew-change and/or repairs will be permitted in Melbourne?

And who is the lady with a line in her hand in the 3rd picture at the DFRT webpage here; http://www.dongfengraceteam.cn/news/view/A-new-story-begins?
The woman on Board Dong Feng might be the experienced Anne Lena from Sweden.

She sure looks like Anne Lena, Same nose, eye brows, chin, length and color of hair.

dong feng female.jpg

AnnaLena_CloseUp.JPG

And about crew changes and repairs, ask Potter, he knows a lot.

 

NORBowGirl

Super Anarchist
1,674
160
2 questions, looking for answers;

I'm wondering if a crew-change and/or repairs will be permitted in Melbourne?

And who is the lady with a line in her hand in the 3rd picture at the DFRT webpage here; http://www.dongfengraceteam.cn/news/view/A-new-story-begins?
The woman on Board Dong Feng might be the experienced Anne Lena from Sweden.

She sure looks like Anne Lena, Same nose, eye brows, chin, length and color of hair.

attachicon.gif
dong feng female.jpg

attachicon.gif
AnnaLena_CloseUp.JPG

And about crew changes and repairs, ask Potter, he knows a lot.
It's not Anna Lena. I know her, so I am 100% sure.

 

jonas a

Super Anarchist
^^ didn't we conclude long time ago that it was Marie Riou? There was a lot of back and forth regarding her qualifications, although no one has been confirmed yet by the skipper

 
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Rantifarian

Rantifarian
^

I agree with much of what you say, however for the Lorient leg to me it looked as if it was won by Sam taking a bold approach to sailing upwind in strong conditions. The obvious (to me) best tactical choice, and incidentally the toughest. Something which all other skippers elected not to do. The girls won that leg by a big margin, and it wasn't the boring AIS fest which dominated the other legs.

That leg proved as a fact that it is possible in one design big boat ocean racing for a women's team to beat all the men's teams and it was no fluke!

That performance showed that there is no reason why women need positive discrimination. The SCA exercise simply demonstrated that regardless of gender, the sailors need practice in real conditions. Something the girls crew were woefully short of compared with the others at the start. It was all coming good towards the end of the event, but SCA by that time had had their "pound of flesh" and pulled the plug.

You rightly point out how important overall boat weight and stacking weight is, and that there can be too many people on these boats, (as well as obviously enough, too few). The answer is very simple. Let the skippers choose how many crew they need. Women being normally a bit lighter and less physically strong than men, will likely choose to sail with a numerically larger crew. Having a rule which dictates equal crew numbers on the boats discriminates against women, and having by rule, more women allowed than men was seen as discriminating in favour of them (!) last time. The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.

And, no I have nothing against mixed crews. I would love to see a female led project with a female skipper selecting a mixed crew and including say, 2 or three blokes. That would create massive public interest.

What I am against is the continuing total male domination of the event, and I think the present rule will only result in male skippered boats carrying a couple of token women. OK that will allow a few girls to get some experience but in essence it will be the "same old boys" running the show at all levels, and the public will not even notice the female involvement.

I would love to see Dee being selected by a big commercial enterprise to front up a high profile VOR project with herself or another girl selected by her as skipper, and I have no problem if she also selects a few guys on the crew. That boat would have the best ROI, and I and many others will be glued to the next VOR if that happens. If Dee sails as a "trimmer" on a majority male crewed boat I won't even bother following the event, and I think Dee deserves better than that.
I think I remember Sam Davies saying she wish she did not have 11 crew members for weight and space. I to feel there needs to be a minimal crew contingent for safety reasons (sleep, rest, watch), but the idea of managing the mass of the boat via crew numbers is laughable. The amount of water that hit the deck of a boat, stays in the cockpit, negates a worry that adding or subtracting 120 lbs plus gear and staples would matter. A boat that weighs in 500 lbs more than another can still beat a lighter boat, just by not making as many mistakes. Blown tacks, bad steering, wrong choice of sails...the list is endless on how you can slow a boat down outside of weight.
As to NORBowGirl's thought about "all this talk"...without it, the idea would fade and I do not think that would be good for Sailing as a whole. To survive in the mainstream of media attention, sports need diversity and visibility. To halt the progress of Sailing becoming a boutique sport, the challenge is to expand involvement, not allow it to shrink. Different nationalities, different races, and yes, different genders thriving at the top of the sport so that mix propagates down into the base. SCA fired up and inspired woman around the world in many ways, but in one big part, getting them more active in the sport.

SCA dropped the ball, but by keeping this in the public eye, perhaps some company or sponsor with better vision can see how a all female or majority female crew, led by a female skipper can give them great ROI, but continue to inspire.
A heavier boat can win, but they have another hurdle to overcome, so their opponents need to make an extra mistake. Have you ever sailed in a decent fleet bucc? You sound like a back of fleet plonker when you make comments like that.
Managing crew numbers by weight leads to dangerous weight cuts before weigh in. Given the significant weight loss that occurs on many.legs, that is a bad road to go down

 

bucc5062

Super Anarchist
2,042
217
United States
^

I agree with much of what you say, however for the Lorient leg to me it looked as if it was won by Sam taking a bold approach to sailing upwind in strong conditions. The obvious (to me) best tactical choice, and incidentally the toughest. Something which all other skippers elected not to do. The girls won that leg by a big margin, and it wasn't the boring AIS fest which dominated the other legs.

That leg proved as a fact that it is possible in one design big boat ocean racing for a women's team to beat all the men's teams and it was no fluke!

That performance showed that there is no reason why women need positive discrimination. The SCA exercise simply demonstrated that regardless of gender, the sailors need practice in real conditions. Something the girls crew were woefully short of compared with the others at the start. It was all coming good towards the end of the event, but SCA by that time had had their "pound of flesh" and pulled the plug.

You rightly point out how important overall boat weight and stacking weight is, and that there can be too many people on these boats, (as well as obviously enough, too few). The answer is very simple. Let the skippers choose how many crew they need. Women being normally a bit lighter and less physically strong than men, will likely choose to sail with a numerically larger crew. Having a rule which dictates equal crew numbers on the boats discriminates against women, and having by rule, more women allowed than men was seen as discriminating in favour of them (!) last time. The answer is so obvious. No rule is needed, only free choice.

And, no I have nothing against mixed crews. I would love to see a female led project with a female skipper selecting a mixed crew and including say, 2 or three blokes. That would create massive public interest.

What I am against is the continuing total male domination of the event, and I think the present rule will only result in male skippered boats carrying a couple of token women. OK that will allow a few girls to get some experience but in essence it will be the "same old boys" running the show at all levels, and the public will not even notice the female involvement.

I would love to see Dee being selected by a big commercial enterprise to front up a high profile VOR project with herself or another girl selected by her as skipper, and I have no problem if she also selects a few guys on the crew. That boat would have the best ROI, and I and many others will be glued to the next VOR if that happens. If Dee sails as a "trimmer" on a majority male crewed boat I won't even bother following the event, and I think Dee deserves better than that.
I think I remember Sam Davies saying she wish she did not have 11 crew members for weight and space. I to feel there needs to be a minimal crew contingent for safety reasons (sleep, rest, watch), but the idea of managing the mass of the boat via crew numbers is laughable. The amount of water that hit the deck of a boat, stays in the cockpit, negates a worry that adding or subtracting 120 lbs plus gear and staples would matter. A boat that weighs in 500 lbs more than another can still beat a lighter boat, just by not making as many mistakes. Blown tacks, bad steering, wrong choice of sails...the list is endless on how you can slow a boat down outside of weight.
As to NORBowGirl's thought about "all this talk"...without it, the idea would fade and I do not think that would be good for Sailing as a whole. To survive in the mainstream of media attention, sports need diversity and visibility. To halt the progress of Sailing becoming a boutique sport, the challenge is to expand involvement, not allow it to shrink. Different nationalities, different races, and yes, different genders thriving at the top of the sport so that mix propagates down into the base. SCA fired up and inspired woman around the world in many ways, but in one big part, getting them more active in the sport.

SCA dropped the ball, but by keeping this in the public eye, perhaps some company or sponsor with better vision can see how a all female or majority female crew, led by a female skipper can give them great ROI, but continue to inspire.
A heavier boat can win, but they have another hurdle to overcome, so their opponents need to make an extra mistake. Have you ever sailed in a decent fleet bucc? You sound like a back of fleet plonker when you make comments like that.
Managing crew numbers by weight leads to dangerous weight cuts before weigh in. Given the significant weight loss that occurs on many.legs, that is a bad road to go down
You gave me a good chuckle. In one design I raced an older heavier Buccaneer 18 successfully for a few years. Got frustrated that with the current boat, I eventually could not consistently beat newer lighter boats so I bought a brand new boat, became quite successful with in making it to 4th nationally in the class. I use to take a Chrysler 22 with a PHYR rating of 270 and win a race now and then against lighter Catalina 22's. Sure, lighter, newer faster is the best option, but life is not perfect so the best approach is be a better sailor/skipper first, learn what makes the boat go fast then try to get it faster.

At the caliber of Olympic sailing or semi-professional ocean sailing, the mistakes get way less, the performance margins are much tighter so even issues like weight might make a factor, but as Davies said, she wish she had the ability to choose crew number, not based on weight, but on what she needed. I am all for a minimum crew weight and number and allowing the skipper complete control on how to play the range.

 

MPH

Super Anarchist
1,825
124
NW
There will be a legends race for the final leg from The Hague to Gothenburg. Any former race participant can participate, sounds like a maxi class an volvo 60class and an open class.

Seems like an excellent idea.

 

jonas a

Super Anarchist
oool idea. they used to have these also in the final of the surfing world tour. The legends always stole the show

 
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