Was Biden's Taiwan comment a Gaff or Deliberate?

mikewof

mikewof
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This outta be good. How is this so Mikey?
Are you actually this out of touch? Can you write a question without being a cunt? Why do you think those Hongkongers are protesting and getting sent to prison? Do you think they just like to complain? Was the Umbrella Movement just a Chinese version of Lalapalooza in your mind?

China is supposed to honor Hong Kong's own internal rule until 2047, essentially treating Hong Kong as its own country. They are not supposed to control their government, they're not supposed to shortlist elections, they're not supposed to control Hong Kong media, and most especially, they're not supposed to arrest and then "deport" Hongkongers to mainland Chinese justice and prisons, nor break pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong, until at least 2047. But they're doing all of this anyway, they've broken their promise to Hong Kong autonomy.

I can only assume that you don't see any of this because you are the kind of dictatorial wannabe that supports China's human rights violations as an expression of your own internal struggle.

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
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De Nile
Are you actually this out of touch? Can you write a question without being a cunt? Why do you think those Hongkongers are protesting and getting sent to prison? Do you think they just like to complain? Was the Umbrella Movement just a Chinese version of Lalapalooza in your mind?

China is supposed to honor Hong Kong's own internal rule until 2047, essentially treating Hong Kong as its own country. They are not supposed to control their government, they're not supposed to shortlist elections, they're not supposed to control Hong Kong media, and most especially, they're not supposed to arrest and then "deport" Hongkongers to mainland Chinese justice and prisons, nor break pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong, until at least 2047. But they're doing all of this anyway, they've broken their promise to Hong Kong autonomy.

I can only assume that you don't see any of this because you are the kind of dictatorial wannabe that supports China's human rights violations as an expression of your own internal struggle.
Ahh, I get what you were trying to say now. Not that they took control decades before handover (that occurred in ‘97. I lived in HK in ‘95 and the locals were very much in control with little oversight), but that they didn’t really pay attention to the treaty.

yeah, I agree. Powerful nations ignore treaties when they choose to do so.

 

mikewof

mikewof
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Ahh, I get what you were trying to say now. Not that they took control decades before handover (that occurred in ‘97. I lived in HK in ‘95 and the locals were very much in control with little oversight), but that they didn’t really pay attention to the treaty.

yeah, I agree. Powerful nations ignore treaties when they choose to do so.
Then apologies for my snark, I thought your post was a troll for a shitfight.

I've never been to China, never lived there as you have. That's part of why it's such a bizarre shift for me to understand them. I work with Chinese physicists, they are nearly as good as the Russian physicists, far, far beyond the capabilities of most Americans and Europeans. I have an undying respect for their culture, their personal respect, their patience. But even one of my friends, he defended his homeland's dictatorship in the most unnerving way. I'm not sure if he really does see political dissidents and Falun Gong practitioners as dangerous rabble rousers, or if he is genuinely concerned for the safety of his family back in China and he worries about spies in the USA. If it's the latter, I could understand, they could potentially make trouble for his family.

Russians aren't like that. Back in the old days, a Soviet expat would damn his or her own government to hell the second they left the place. Maybe they don't have the fear of "Big Brother" the way the Chinese do. 

And I don't worry about Chinese Communism taking over the world, they genuinely seem more than happy to let the rest of the planet stew in its own juices. But they are a noted and established danger to the things that make the world beautiful; they seem to have little resistance to industrializing West Africa and South America in the least conscious ways possible. They seem to view these overseas economic colonies that they have developed in the same way that the British saw their colonies a hundred year's ago; as a means to quick cash and little else.

And the reports coming out of China, with political protestors who disappear from their homes and their families, Muslims who have to hide their faith; the pressure can never be released, The Chinese Communists need to understand that they will never be welcome by regular people as long as they continue that kind of thing. And yes, I recognize that I am in the glass house of the USA, throwing stones, as we imprison nonviolent victims of the Drug War and turn them into economic slaves. I don't support that either. But the failings of my own country does not excuse the failings of China, and their criminal actions to Hongkongers ... these young adults go to street protests in the afternoon and sometimes never return.

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,072
5,827
De Nile
Then apologies for my snark, I thought your post was a troll for a shitfight.

I've never been to China, never lived there as you have. That's part of why it's such a bizarre shift for me to understand them. I work with Chinese physicists, they are nearly as good as the Russian physicists, far, far beyond the capabilities of most Americans and Europeans. I have an undying respect for their culture, their personal respect, their patience. But even one of my friends, he defended his homeland's dictatorship in the most unnerving way. I'm not sure if he really does see political dissidents and Falun Gong practitioners as dangerous rabble rousers, or if he is genuinely concerned for the safety of his family back in China and he worries about spies in the USA. If it's the latter, I could understand, they could potentially make trouble for his family.

Russians aren't like that. Back in the old days, a Soviet expat would damn his or her own government to hell the second they left the place. Maybe they don't have the fear of "Big Brother" the way the Chinese do. 

And I don't worry about Chinese Communism taking over the world, they genuinely seem more than happy to let the rest of the planet stew in its own juices. But they are a noted and established danger to the things that make the world beautiful; they seem to have little resistance to industrializing West Africa and South America in the least conscious ways possible. They seem to view these overseas economic colonies that they have developed in the same way that the British saw their colonies a hundred year's ago; as a means to quick cash and little else.

And the reports coming out of China, with political protestors who disappear from their homes and their families, Muslims who have to hide their faith; the pressure can never be released, The Chinese Communists need to understand that they will never be welcome by regular people as long as they continue that kind of thing. And yes, I recognize that I am in the glass house of the USA, throwing stones, as we imprison nonviolent victims of the Drug War and turn them into economic slaves. I don't support that either. But the failings of my own country does not excuse the failings of China, and their criminal actions to Hongkongers ... these young adults go to street protests in the afternoon and sometimes never return.
Yeah, the locals that I met, when liberated a bit via alcohol, would bitch about the imperialistic US, not China. Hell, they were all taking Mandarin lessons knowing the handover was gonna change things. While there was definitely a faction of "independent Hong Kong" folks, it didn't seem too big.

 

BeSafe

Super Anarchist
8,108
1,352
I've never been to China, never lived there as you have. That's part of why it's such a bizarre shift for me to understand them. I work with Chinese physicists, they are nearly as good as the Russian physicists, far, far beyond the capabilities of most Americans and Europeans. I have an undying respect for their culture, their personal respect, their patience. But even one of my friends, he defended his homeland's dictatorship in the most unnerving way. I'm not sure if he really does see political dissidents and Falun Gong practitioners as dangerous rabble rousers, or if he is genuinely concerned for the safety of his family back in China and he worries about spies in the USA. If it's the latter, I could understand, they could potentially make trouble for his family.
I've had a couple of Chinese friends, mostly from the south so take the following observations for what they are...

My understanding is that Chinese take ancestry super seriously - in a way few Americans can internalize.  They really do see the 'line of their people' going back millennia and act accordingly.  They don't view individual leaders as being particularly meaningful - important sure - but the fundamental bedrock is their culture.  And they'll defend it even when some individual leader does things they personally disagree with because its their culture.

We talk about the Bill of Rights and Constitution and individual freedom as being foundational.  The Chinese talk about the 'harmonious society'' .  New Confucianism stresses unity - that individuals should strive to be part of "the universal presence in which there is a universality of mind amongst all beings, thus being the reality. "  Everyone is a cog in the machine toward greater enlightenment.  That's the goal.

By contrast, the Abraham religions - and western ethos in general - are all based on the idea of 'Wrestling with the Universe" at some level.   The world 'Israel' literally means 'Wrestling with God'.  The Old Testament - the Jewish version, not the re-ordered Catholic one - ends with Moses being ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE RIVER from the holy land.  He dies and NEVER gets there.  He fights with God the whole way, questioning god, backsliding, being punished, and at the end, Moses NEVER gets to paradise on earth, despite being the most important protagonist.  As God says to Job explicitly - "Fuck you, who are you to question me.  Just do it."   The moral is that the universe is a vast and complex place that we will never really understand but we should try anyway.   Life is fundamentally a 'Hero's Journey' - not our "Heroes' Journey".

Contrast that to Confucius and the eastern religions that talk about 'universality' and striving to all become the one true consciousness.  Its a group mission where everyone is trying to get to some version of nirvana and ultimately become one at the end.  These are fundamentally stories of community.

I don't know if that helps but there really is a fundamental difference between western and eastern philosophy - one that deeply impacts how societies are structured.

 
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Gissie

Super Anarchist
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1,744
Yeah, the locals that I met, when liberated a bit via alcohol, would bitch about the imperialistic US, not China. Hell, they were all taking Mandarin lessons knowing the handover was gonna change things. While there was definitely a faction of "independent Hong Kong" folks, it didn't seem too big.
If you know HK you would understand that to most of them it is all about the money. They hate the mainland with a vengeance, but are also realistic. Those at the top learnt mandarin, pledged allegiance to the new puppet masters and got passports in other countries. Those offered a promising position in the puppet government gave up the second passport when required.

There has been no real answer given for the sudden take over. A mainlander, living in HK for four years was taken by surprise. He couldn't understand at all, as he pointed out, the number of mainlanders permitted to move to HK was growing each year. Before long the original citizens would be outnumbered and things would just change.

The moral of the story is that their are different forces at play, the biggest being face, or a loss of. Would an invasion of Taiwan be a clusterfuck, absolutely. Would Taiwan be mostly destroyed, most likely.

Would any of that matter if China felt it would lose face if it didn't do it. No.

 

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