What caused the leak in the new hull?

[Qingdaosog]

The First 36 post was  distracted by my observations  that I hoped Seascape/Beneteau had got their act together on this new complex boat  and their subsequent  reponse.

So I undertook to report elsewhere on the outcome of the investigation into my leaking First 27 hull. 

Finally it was a design or build problem. Not a leaking propshaft  seal as Seascape had insisted . The propshaft tube was  either not correctly bonded to the GRP hull or it had failed. Water was then entering through a crack between the tube and hull. Seascape/ Beneteau have  prevailed that despite the boat being unavailable to use properly for 12 months no compensation is justified.  They have tried to blame the competence of the dealer but this cannot be laid at his door. It was a cock-up,  pure and simple. Along with another 20 or so issues on my new boat.  This seems to be a strange industry... 

 

[nota]

a 10 to 20 punch list is not uncommon on a new boat

difference is how the list is dealt with and a year is way too long

dealer and the local rep should have been far quicker

but the leak in that area is 99% of the time the nut who tightened the nut

 

[Sail4beer]

Don’t know the exact problem that causes the water ingress, but hiring a private boat marine artisan, AKA repair guy like me for an option, could have saved you delay. Once a boat is sold, it is a headache for many dealers. An outside opinion is invaluable in the marine industry…that said, I’m glad your main problem is resolved.

 

[Matagi]

that said, I’m glad your main problem is resolved.

??

If I understand correctly, the fun is just getting started. 

Unless @Qingdaosog has no issue with swallowing the damage or sees that pursuing that case would cost even more with little chance to get a compensation.

 

[Somebody Else]

Can you do a "Unpack and inspect first, pay after it passes" strategy.

I was having multiple problems with instruments from Guitar Center. Some were clearly B-stock sold at full pop retail. Others damaged during shipping. And so on. I ended up adopting a policy that I would not pay for the product until I inspected it there at the store. This irritated the staff because it more-or-less disrupts the flow in the already-crowded retail location. But the fact remains: before you pay for it, it's THEIR problem. Once you pay for it/take it out the front door, it's YOUR problem.

 

[Overbored]

I believe this boat is in China so not many good resources to repair boat manufacturing problems. Dealer was not up to the task.

 

[Qingdaosog]

Can you do a "Unpack and inspect first, pay after it passes" strategy.

I was having multiple problems with instruments from Guitar Center. Some were clearly B-stock sold at full pop retail. Others damaged during shipping. And so on. I ended up adopting a policy that I would not pay for the product until I inspected it there at the store. This irritated the staff because it more-or-less disrupts the flow in the already-crowded retail location. But the fact remains: before you pay for it, it's THEIR problem. Once you pay for it/take it out the front door, it's YOUR problem.

Beneteau insist on full 100% payment before shipment from Europe. 

 

[casc27]

Beneteau insist on full 100% payment before shipment from Europe. 

Interesting policy to which I would say "fuck you very much" and take my $$ elsewhere.

Glad you got it sorted.

 

[Qingdaosog]

a 10 to 20 punch list is not uncommon on a new boat

difference is how the list is dealt with and a year is way too long

dealer and the local rep should have been far quicker

but the leak in that area is 99% of the time the nut who tightened the nut

It is remarkable to me that in this day and age such a level of defects is deemed acceptable. It certainly would not be in my industry, food production  And I would think most others. Repairing new boats must be  an expensive and wastedul business. As I said in my first comment this is indeed a strange industry. Surely better to have the inspection and quality procedures in place to avoid all the extra waste and cost. Just like unsafe food, unsafe boats can be life threatening. Most of the issues on my boat were just dumb. Eg Broken toilet glued together. Rig would not fit. Table would not fit as hinges in wrong place. Waste pipes fitted incorrectly with a kink as too long  so they would not work. etc etc.  It almost seems macho to accept these things as part of the deal. Butvits not. It's just crap. 

 

[CovBoy]

Apparently I am a whiner so I won’t add much.  I hope the hull is tight finally. Have you had her out under power and sail?  Have you detailed the repair? I missed it if you did. 
Without industry infrastructure around you, and especially now with all the movement restrictions, every problem appears magnified.

 

[Parma]

I believe this boat is in China so not many good resources to repair boat manufacturing problems. Dealer was not up to the task.

As I understand it, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, the dealership the OP purchased this boat from  is in China, incorporated in China and is run by Chinese citizens.

 

[Sail4beer]

I had a boat built in China and it had some damage including the stanchions. I was told that the company didn’t really know how to sell parts or offer a repair warranty. I understand that they are in a “new” industry. A bad Beneteau would be hard to repair in China unless you know someone who works in a boat building factory. 

 

[AnotherSailor]

It is remarkable to me that in this day and age such a level of defects is deemed acceptable. It certainly would not be in my industry, food production  And I would think most others. Repairing new boats must be  an expensive and wastedul business. As I said in my first comment this is indeed a strange industry. Surely better to have the inspection and quality procedures in place to avoid all the extra waste and cost. Just like unsafe food, unsafe boats can be life threatening. Most of the issues on my boat were just dumb. Eg Broken toilet glued together. Rig would not fit. Table would not fit as hinges in wrong place. Waste pipes fitted incorrectly with a kink as too long  so they would not work. etc etc.  It almost seems macho to accept these things as part of the deal. Butvits not. It's just crap. 

 I would not just take boat building as one industry. It really depends. Beneteau and the like have such a large market that they apparently can get away with some bad builds. Quality control is poor. Smaller builders, on the other hand, have to keep up the standards or will lose contracts and be out of business. A small builder just cannot get away with a leak, broken toilet, or non-fitting rig. 

This is purely anecdotal, but I have heard of several poor builds of oversees boats build by French builders (Beneho and Jenneau). Are they sending the crappiest ones to the US and China? Like I said I have no evidence beyond a few anecdotes. 

 

[kiwin]

Just look at the quality problems in Lagoon catamaran bulkhead bonding. It's not just Beneteau and their brands. I have seen the same issues with Hanse and others. 

 

[Sail4beer]

Production boats are most often NOT constructed by people familiar with sailing or any marine environment. If the boat were still in France, your warranty may be valid and the company would hire an artisan like me to subcontract an easy repair based on the problem described. Delivered to China, the warranty is void by a couple thousand miles. 

 

[Ncik]

Repairing new boats must be  an expensive and wastedul business.

yep

 

[shanghaisailor]

Frankly I think it is nothing less than disgusting that a product should leave a factory less than 100% perfect. Isn't that what the customer pays for after all?

Excuses such as "it is common in the industry" is a sad reflection on what the industry delivers and what we as consumers accept and when someone actually expects what they paid for an makes noises when they don't excuses are made.

It is a while since I last bought a new boat. 2007 actually. She was built in 1982 (only school standards applied perhaps) and then the yard closed with her 95% completed and sat under a tarpaulin in a shed for 25 years. The rig still wrapped in oily brown paper in a 40' long box on the shed wall.

The yard had closed because "Hong Kong labour had become too expensive" or perhaps the market just wanted cheaper boats but boats cost what they do for a reason.

The faults list on that boat... just didn't exist - there were none.

I remember a friend I sailed with in the UK (I even had the spare keys to the boat) had a Westerly from new - same story, boat arrived with zero snagging list. 

It was said at the time that one of the reasons that Westerly went under was they provided "too much boat for the money".

Perhaps the leisure marine industry needs a reset, to once again focus on quality rather than price - not easy where so many shop by the latter and that is how the market appears to be driven these days. Now, when we occasionally sell boats here in China I find people wanting to pay less and less I simply say to them how much less of a boat do you want? This while some other suppliers shave over 60kg out of the minimum class weight of a 1500kg boat (approx 4%) Quite a saving for the builder but that layup was designed in for a reason

The boat in question in this thread arrived to Qingdaosog with even the wrong rigging. How much extra would it have taken the yard to actually measure the wires before sending them along with the rig? And from reading other threads on the matter an undelivered but charged for headsail furler took months to refund

No excuse for such basic lack of customer care cuts it.  

Back in the day three was a New York tailor with a sign in the window "Good, quick, cheap - pick one" That is as relevant in the boat building industry today as it was to that tailor back then.

The comments that the dealer should sort out problems are misplaced. They should not be expected to effectively have to 'repair' the product before it is delivered.

Can you imaging the uproar if a Ford dealer had to repair every motor car when it arrived from the factory, to repair the leaking gearbox because the Ford factory hadn't assembled it correctly? (as appears to be the case with the Beneteau 27's prop-shaft.

And bottom line is that, had Beneteau/Seascape held their hands up from the get go and admitted it wasn't right and put in best efforts to correct the situation everyone would have been happy and the after sales care of the builder would have been praised rather than the lack of care criticised.

Just my tuppence worth

I understand the boat now floats and doesn't leak - at last. How long did that take?

Maybe now I will see him on the water

SS    

 

[Rain Man]

Just try to find a manufacturer that even properly seals fittings in cored laminate.  Such a basic thing, an extra couple grand on a build at the most, but they don't do it.  I think it is on purpose to limit the life of the boat.

Just look at the JBird TP-52 rebuild - the entire deck was a write-off because nobody sealed anything.  My SC 27 is on its second re-coring.

 

[Qingdaosog]

So have mass boat builders just resorted to selling a dream? And not too bothered about the actual product? Well if so  they got me there then.. Naive Sucker!