What defines a true circumnavigation?

[SloopJonB]

I can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

Anyone can do that - they just have to not mind getting it all over themselves.

 

[jack_sparrow]

The clipper ship thing is interesting, but it seems to leave a lot of places that were major trade centers off.   I guess you have wool in New Zealand, but I've always hear of places like India and China and even Indonesia as the main trading centers of Asia in that era, no offense to Aussie and Kiwis intended...

Hence I was carefull to say "circumnavigation route." that incorporated Australia and NZ trade.

There generic term "Clipper Route" was that between Europe and the Far East with opium a cargo of choice, particularly American Clipper ships. Clipper Ships did go east to west around Cape Horn into the Pacific to reach Asia following the route first opened up by the Spanish and Portuguese in 17th century. However that was a pain in the arse as it often required a couple of goes to get around Cape Horn and was slower. However it did link up with Nth America west coast particularly the return trip via the Nth Pacific aka Asian goods and Chinese labour for Californian Gold Rush.

Hence my reference to the early 17th Century  Brouwer Route which pre dated colonisation (trade) of Aust/NZ and would halve the time from Europe to SE Asia utilising the Roaring Forties and lesser Great Circle longitude distance. However with no accurate way at that time to determine longitude, many crashed (predominantly Dutch East India Co vessels) into the West Aust coast as shown in map below. In fact one is the first credited European to land in Aust, Dirk Hartog I 1616. Though between you and me I believe a Portugese chap Torres (as in Torres Strait) beat him to it in 1607, but he was a tad lost and not a great cartographer.

The "circumnavigation" route incorporating Aust and NZ was an extension of that Brouwer Route and Asian trade you refer. 

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

You answered your own question with the word "rocket". The trade game was and is today all about speed. Those that got their stuff to market first, got the higher price. As the book Fah refers: "The last great grain race."

Why were the Clipper ships furiously sailing far south to rocket around the bottom of the Earth in the Roaring 40s and then return to Western Europe for? 

Allan Villiers and Eric Newby 'The last great grain race '....

The introduction of the marine steam engine introduced the Suez and Panama Canals where traversing some sections was not even under steam, but by being towed by steam powered locomotives. Being towed by a train can't be included for a defining a circumnavigation route under sail surely?

With that the traditional circumnavigation route under sail died. What didn't die was that traditional 5 Capes/5 Oceans route to define "circumnavigation" under sail remains today as the measure and benchmark. 

However I won't be a pedantic prick and insist an auxiliary motor can't be used on a 5 Capes/5 Oceans circumnavigation route Afterall "auxiliary steam powered" clipper style sailing vessels were used on that route for a while.

 

[charisma94]

It’s an arbitrary human endeavor and the definition only exists to ensure records are apples to apples. 
 

No records people who get caught up defining or working against the definition by arguing this and that are missing the point. 

People like Bruce Hudson? If we slide this topic over into the Bruce thread, I'm sure we'll get the right answer in 10,000 words or more.

 

[Fiji Bitter]

Anyone can do that - they just have to not mind getting it all over themselves.

That's what makes the difference, ask Captain Cook!

 

[Fiji Bitter]

Gold earing right ear ..well that's means you squat to take a piss. If you can do that into a Storm or Violent Storm if gusting over 55 and not fill your shoes up..well you are a Legend mate

You make it way too complicated, Captain.

If you piss downwind the back eddy blows it straight up into your face. 

The trick is to use your beer belly! Face it at about 10° AWA and Bernoulli will lift it away from your boots and face. It is important to pull enough of your shrimp out of your foulies, otherwise it will blowback in the boundary layer and end up in your Musto middle layer.

Experience count and earings in both ears helps too.

 

[jack_sparrow]

Experience count and earings in both ears helps too.

Experience and detailed scientific reasoning behind it working. Well done.

Sometimes even with the combination of those two people can get it wrong. If you asked anyone who had climbed My Everest if the had climbed the world's tallest mountain and at its summit were closer to the moon than on any other they mountain, they would without blinking say yes to both.

They are in fact wrong for both. BTW the latter moon question & answer also explains why "longitude" and the Clipper Ship "circumnavigation" route are related if anyone wants to go thread drift nazi on my arse.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

Experience and detailed scientific reasoning behind it working. Well done.

Sometimes even with the combination of those two people can get it wrong. If you asked anyone who had climbed My Everest if the had climbed the world's tallest mountain and at its summit were closer to the moon than on any other they mountain, they would without blinking say yes to both.

They are in fact wrong for both. BTW the latter moon question & answer also explains why "longitude" and the Clipper Ship "circumnavigation" route are related if anyone wants to go thread drift nazi on my arse.

Do bits of mountain under the sea count? And mountains on the equator being closer to the moon?

Can't be bothered giving it more than 30 seconds of thought though, so - shrug.

FKT

 

[jack_sparrow]

Do bits of mountain under the sea count? And mountains on the equator being closer to the moon?

Yes the bit that's under the sea is included. Yes less circumference (longitude seperation) the higher the latitude number. Well done.

 

[charisma94]

Whoa.

That's gonna take a minute to digest.

But, yeah...

 

[stumblingthunder]

Circumnavigation - When the Buffalo girls go round the outside...

- Stumbling

 

[Marinatrix447]

Circumnavigate [ sur-kuh m-nav-i-geyt ]

Verb (used with object), cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ed, cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ing - to sail or fly around; make the circuit by navigation: to circumnavigate the earth.

On that basis... Take yer pic.



 

CLIPPER










OYSTER RALLY







Though there are hot-spots....



Or go a tad more more hardcore explorer and dial-in the NWP and/or a Cape Horn pass through... and then add in the correct arm tats…




Toodle-pip

 

[Laser1]

I wear a golden earring, and can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

That depends, on the left you 'allegedly' went past Cape Horn. On the right you're a poofter.  YMMV  :lol:

 

[us7070]

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

Magellan's route - the one he didn't finish- went through two antiodes, and the concept existed long before that..,of course, they didn't have canals, so you are right about that being a requirement as well.

 

[Black Sox]

That depends, on the left you 'allegedly' went past Cape Horn. On the right you're a poofter.  YMMV  :lol:

I think that you have to sail past Cape Horn

• on a square-rigger and
  
• carrying cargo.
  

Not so many opportunities to do that any more.

 

[Bristol-Cruiser]

It is a mistake to use the term 'clipper ship' to refer to any square rigger used for trade. Real clippers were slim greyhounds designed for speed, to carry new crop tea from China to Britain in the minimum time possible. The tea from the first clipper sold for a very high price. The last square riggers were completely different ships. They carried large amounts of low-value cargo like guano. For these cargoes speed was irrelevant. The driving force was cost. for a few decades these ships were cheaper to operate than steam ships.

As to the definition of a circumnavigation, it does not make much sense to talk about the routes used by the clippers or other ships. The routes they followed were commercially driven. Really the same thing is true for the various modern rtw races. They start and finish (and follow a route) driven by commercial considerations and the need to stop or not stop along the way.

Our trip was from the Caribbean by Panama, Oz, South Africa and back to the Caribbean. We crossed our path at Grenada. In total we did 34,000 nm. We thought (briefly) about heading to Patagonia and Antarctica after finishing the rtw. That would have added Cape Horn I guess. (Went to Antarctica on a very nice cruise ship. The food was better and we could leave the driving to someone else.) Seemed like a circumnavigation to me, although I have no earring at all.

 

[jack_sparrow]

Magellan's route - the one he didn't finish- went through two antiodes, and the concept existed long before that..,of course, they didn't have canals, so you are right about that being a requirement as well.

Don't worry he wasn't forgotten. 

...Clipper Ships did go east to west around Cape Horn into the Pacific to reach Asia following the route first opened up by the Spanish and Portuguese in 17th century.....

 

[aloha27]

Your true circumnavigation certainly includes simply circling Antarctica.Or an island in New York Harbor. That is the definition. I think what you mean is a circumnavigation of the earth.

Passing thru a pair of antipodal points seems rather harsh by cruising standards, versus some record book rule. I'm siding with your friend. How many bars did he stop into?

You mean HWSNBN's planned circumnavigation of Vancouver Island didn't qualify?

 

[jack_sparrow]

As to the definition of a circumnavigation, it does not make much sense to talk about the routes used by the clippers or other ships. The routes they followed were commercially driven. Really the same thing is true for the various modern rtw races.

So a circumnavigation route definition can't be "commercially" or "race" course derived (NB. The Speed Council has circumnavigation course parameters for record making).

Therefore that only leaves "recreational". However recreational circumnavigators don't readily leave a trail, some take years even decades, stop and start etc so therefore don't really leave a basis to found a definition upon other than something atrbitary. However there maybe one exception.

There has been well over 200 single handed circumnavigations since the world's first, the 1895-98 circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum on Spray according to sources like  RKJ List of Solo Circumnavigators.  Majority of their courses incorporate 3 Capes, many 5 Capes and 4 or 5 Oceans and majority of at least one equator crossing.

Those numbers are all recreational (but incl of racing) however the course characteristics don't change. Some like Jon Sanders at the age of 81 is currently going around today for his 11th time. 

So if a circumnavigation definition is limited to a recreational foundation then the minimum course average for the "entire history" of mans solo circumnavigations being a minimum of 3 Capes, crossing all meridians of longitude and one equator crossing appears to have a very solid basis.

 

[Not My Real Name]

You mean HWSNBN's planned circumnavigation of Vancouver Island didn't qualify?

Next year...

 

[Hitchhiker]

Webb Chile’s seems to have covered several definitions.

https://www.inthepresentsea.com/the_actual_site/introduction.html

Well worth reading.