What Does Gun Violence Really Cost?

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,543
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
(very cool post, hate to snip it)

I talked to my mother about his case again. She said, "He got Judge Morphonios, the hanging judge. She'd do that."

Look her up. My mom said she was in the courtroom for the "Nice shot" comment.

I talked to "Ernie" the other day. Told him I want to come see him and that I didn't think he should be locked up for the rest of his life. I'm going to look into whether there's any way to get him out. Seems rehabilitated to me. Somehow. Despite our prison system, not because of it. Life changes us.
+1. A very sensitive post.

Such admirable compassion could be applied to 309 gunshot victims, every day. And to people whom you race-bait.

Life changes some of us, sometimes.
This was posted in a thread that was not about me nor about guns, but the stat used brings me back to this thread.

Politifact says that to reach that number, you must include all the suicides by gun.

As mentioned, I believe in self-ownership and the right to die.

 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
Guns accelerate our suicide rates. Guns contribute to impulsive deaths; each gun suicide is taken by many as a social and family tragedy.

I can agree with the choice-to-die side, but only as far as death with dignity.

There is nothing dignified, at all, about a gun suicide.

On the contrary, blasting one's brains out is traumatic, and ugly, for many.

Is suicide just a straw man here?

If you ignore the suicides --... then the number of people who got shot, either fatally or non-fatally, was about 86,000, or roughly 235 a day... And the daily number of firearm deaths would be substantially lower -- 35 per day, rather than the 87 cited in the Facebook post.

Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/>
Your cheery source: If you remove the gun suicides, then 235 humans get shot in the USA every day.

Care to comment on them?

 
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Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,543
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Guns accelerate our suicide rates. Guns contribute to impulsive deaths; each gun suicide is taken by many as a social and family tragedy.

I can agree with the choice-to-die side, but only as far as death with dignity.

There is nothing dignified, at all, about a gun suicide.

On the contrary, blasting one's brains out is traumatic, and ugly, for many.
We agree that guns are a terrible choice for suicide. The difference is that I see no need to impose my preference in that matter on others. I'd impose it on anyone whose body I own. That's just me. So rest assured, I won't blast my brains out.

 

Rockdog

Super Anarchist
7,833
0
Illinois
Guns accelerate our suicide rates. Guns contribute to impulsive deaths; each gun suicide is taken by many as a social and family tragedy.

I can agree with the choice-to-die side, but only as far as death with dignity.

There is nothing dignified, at all, about a gun suicide.

On the contrary, blasting one's brains out is traumatic, and ugly, for many.
We agree that guns are a terrible choice for suicide. The difference is that I see no need to impose my preference in that matter on others. I'd impose it on anyone whose body I own. That's just me. So rest assured, I won't blast my brains out.
If done correctly I'd rather a loved do it with a gun than a rope.

 

Rockdog

Super Anarchist
7,833
0
Illinois
Guns accelerate our suicide rates. Guns contribute to impulsive deaths; each gun suicide is taken by many as a social and family tragedy.

I can agree with the choice-to-die side, but only as far as death with dignity.

There is nothing dignified, at all, about a gun suicide.

On the contrary, blasting one's brains out is traumatic, and ugly, for many.

Is suicide just a straw man here?

If you ignore the suicides --... then the number of people who got shot, either fatally or non-fatally, was about 86,000, or roughly 235 a day... And the daily number of firearm deaths would be substantially lower -- 35 per day, rather than the 87 cited in the Facebook post.



Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/>
Your cheery source: If you remove the gun suicides, then 235 humans get shot in the USA every day.

Care to comment on them?
I'm certain ALL suicides are taken that way by friends and family.
And frankly I've seen loved ones die much more tragic deaths than that. A quick self induced death would have brought me peace.

 
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Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,543
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
random said:
Yep I get it, the deaths of others is a price you are willing pay.
We only "pay" that price to the extent that we own those lives. Since we don't...

BTW, as the Pink Pistols pointed out here, the second is not our only amendment that carries social costs. The fourth amendment's exclusion rules result in the release of lots of really dangerous people each year. We know they're going to go back out and do bad things.

 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
JBSF said:
Guns accelerate our suicide rates. Guns contribute to impulsive deaths; each gun suicide is taken by many as a social and family tragedy.

I can agree with the choice-to-die side, but only as far as death with dignity.

There is nothing dignified, at all, about a gun suicide.

On the contrary, blasting one's brains out is traumatic, and ugly, for many.
Sorry jojo - dead is dead. And there is nothing "dignified" about hanging yourself either. Or slashing your wrists. Or......

And if the mess is all you have a problem with, then maybe we should recommend that self-killers put a plastic garbage bag over their head before they pull the trigger. No muss, no fuss. Take the brains out with the trash on Monday. You ok with that compromise, joe?

Problem SOLved.

You sound quite cheery about our volume of gun suicides. You find them just ducky, you say.

Your crude manner has a fine match in U.S. gun mentality.

I can see where the NRA, and its values, would be attractive to you.

This package (your manner, your deadly justifications, your guns, and your gun club) becomes an extension of the gun problem.

 
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Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,543
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
random said:
Just because you choose to post, doesn't obligate me or anyone else to read it. I opened it then it looked like too much work in 'legalese'. If you want to make a point make it accessible or no one will read it and the fault lies with you.
Ah, so "don't have time" becomes "looks too much like work" and your laziness is my fault?

The link made it accessible to me. Well, the link and an inclination to learn.

 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
Just because you choose to post, doesn't obligate me or anyone else to read it. I opened it then it looked like too much work in 'legalese'. If you want to make a point make it accessible or no one will read it and the fault lies with you.
Ah, so "don't have time" becomes "looks too much like work" and your laziness is my fault?

The link made it accessible to me. Well, the link and an inclination to learn.
That's not what you said another time. And it really struck me.

It was to the effect that you didn't need to consider anti-gun points of view, that you had already considered them, and knew better. As if you had moved on.

Your mind seemed pretty made up that day.

It hit me hard because you blatantly ignore a TON of learned research. Just sayin'.

I wish I could cite the conversation. I can only cite what I posted to you then.

Quote

"The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool"

- W. Shakespeare

Quote

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Isaac Asimov

Quote

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

--M. L. King
 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
Yep I get it, the deaths of others is a price you are willing pay.
We only "pay" that price to the extent that we own those lives. Since we don't...

BTW, as the Pink Pistols pointed out here, the second is not our only amendment that carries social costs. The fourth amendment's exclusion rules result in the release of lots of really dangerous people each year. We know they're going to go back out and do bad things.
Again, you kind of absolve all gun damage by dismissing all gun suicides...as (whew) totally okay.

You are stretching decency, as we know it, as you do this, buster.

I asked this previously. What about the other deaths and injuries?

110,000 total gun casualties (counting injuries) less 19,000 suicides is 91,000 gun casualties per year.

Writing off all gun suicides already has you on thin ethical ice here.

Please comment on the other, non-suicidal, 255 gun casualties, per day.

 
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jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
If you post something that takes more than a minute to read, it won't get read, by me and most others here. Do some work Tom, a couple of sentences, a few short paragraphs to make your point is what is required here. Ant more complicated than that and you will waste your time.
You have a great point.

I've cut my column inches way down.

But first, I made sure the bully boys had "eyeballs on" the best studies out there.

Their ignorant lot had much to ignore, didn't they? It was a Full Text tsunami. Yeah, sorry.

random, let's say for a moment that de-bunking is admirable, or fun.

If disinformation persists, or dumbassery reigns on the gun forums, that's when the SA Gun Club makes for a target-rich environment.

We have a groove here. They like to ignore evidence-based research, and I like to present knowledge, and sourced facts about the gun situation.

One minute reading time, max? That's a challenge around here.

 
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jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
Don't have time to read the attachment.

From what I have seen all you Amendments don't seem to count for much around guns. The Open carry thing is the best example. No longer tolerated despite what the Amendment says.
Tom was being cute, and ethereal. His subject was gun rights outdoors.

The attachment was a Rick-Roll. Tom's link went to the 25-page Peruta decision.

The Peruta decision was a stretch, but it influenced guns being okay outdoors.

Much of Judge Scullin's reasoning followed from the recent Peruta [SIZE=11.25pt]decision[/SIZE], in which the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a concealed-carry law that had effectively made it impossible to carry a gun outside the home in San Diego County. This decision struck down the County's law which required applicants to show "good cause" for wanting to carry a gun outside the home, because the definition of good cause went far beyond a general desire for self-protection and basically required the applicant to prove that without a gun he or she would be unable to protect themselves against a specific threat and therefore would be placing themselves in "harm's way." The Peruta decision claimed that the 2nd Amendment, as decided in Heller, required some form of concealed-carry outside the home. This is an interesting reading of Scalia's decision in Heller, which explicitly limited civilian ownership of guns to keeping them within the home.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-weisser/dc-concealed-carry-guns_b_5626590.html>
 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,236
287
near Seattle, Wa
Tom, I was hoping you could link me to any court decision which went into the following logic or argument:

"The First Amendment applies to the Internet even though it hadn't been invented when the Constitution was written; so the Second Amendment gives me the right to own a modern sporting rifle."
 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,543
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
random said:
Yep I get it, the deaths of others is a price you are willing pay.
We only "pay" that price to the extent that we own those lives. Since we don't...

BTW, as the Pink Pistols pointed out here, the second is not our only amendment that carries social costs. The fourth amendment's exclusion rules result in the release of lots of really dangerous people each year. We know they're going to go back out and do bad things.
Again, you kind of absolve all gun damage by dismissing all gun suicides...as (whew) totally okay.

You are stretching decency, as we know it, as you do this, buster.

I asked this previously. What about the other deaths and injuries?

110,000 total gun casualties (counting injuries) less 19,000 suicides is 91,000 gun casualties per year.

Writing off all gun suicides already has you on thin ethical ice here.

Please comment on the other, non-suicidal, 255 gun casualties, per day.
"I don't think I have a right to interfere with what you're doing" and

"I'm totally OK with what you're doing" are different sentiments to me.

As for the other people, some are actually attempted firearms suicides that failed, some are aggressive acts of violence, some are defensive gun uses, a handful are accidents. Those are 4 very different groups. Do defensive gun uses really belong among the "costs of gun violence"?

 
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