What drives big name lofts to operate overseas?

[mark washeim]

After reading these posts I have a few things that I’d like to say from the prospective of a sailmaker with 38 years of experience in the industry.

I own a sail loft on Long Island in New York. I began making sails on Long Island for a company called Hard Sails in 1978. At the time I believe there were 7 sailmakers on long island. Although there are still a few places on the island that sell and “service” sails we’re the last loft that actually build sails here. It’s true that we can purchase sails for less than we can build them for. It just makes sense that reducing costs (less people, space & equipment) and increasing margin (centralizing manufacturing and capitalizing on the scales of economy) will always increase the bottom line. For a time, if you can keep your customer base, that is obviously true.

What I have seen is that as technology advanced and communication & shipping became easier sailmakers began to consolidate. Having sails built overseas or by low-cost US facilities seemed to make perfect sense. It was a natural progression to centralize manufacturing. If you could purchase sails for less than you could build them for then why would you continue to make them at all? A transformation in the sailmaking industry began here. Larger sailmakers acquired or setup affiliates as sales outlets and “service lofts”. Over the years small lofts have either morphed into a service loft, something else or have vanished completely. Sailmaking is nitpicky, technical work. Some sail groups do not want to make sails at all any longer. They want to design and sell sails and leave the making part to someone else.

What we have seen happen on a local level is that “service lofts” have lost the capability to properly provide service to their customers. They do not have the staff, expertise, equipment, space or materials on hand to deliver professional sail repairs & and other sailing services like rigging, bending & the like, in a timely fashion. We’ve had people pick their sails up from other places and bring them to us for repair simply because they were sick of waiting. We’ve done repairs for other facilities and have lent out equipment to them. Our loft is capable of building just about anything. Simply because we were the only loft in the area capable of doing the work we’ve done a good bit of IMOCA 60 service work & Mega Yacht (100+’er) repairs. We’ve seen one of our major competitors go out of business recently. We also have it on good authority that we have been gaining market share from another major competitor for years.

I believe that it is very important to stay involved in sailmaking if you are serious about being a good supplier to your market. For a while now we’ve been deeply involved with single & double-handed distance racing sails. We’ve been working with RailMeat for years with his OCD Class 40 DRAGON (thank you, Michael). Among a number of other projects in this genera we recently delivered a suit of sails to Joe Harris’s Akilaria RC 2 GRYPHON SOLO 2 for his solo, nonstop circumnavigation record attempt. These boats have new systems that are still under development. Developing details for these systems is very hands-on. I look at what other sailmakers provide and plainly see that personal involvement with a high level of sailmaking skill, coupled with international resources makes for better systems for owners and their sails. This makes for excellent product development and service. It’s a little hard for me to explain but consider that all sails, to some degree, are custom designed/detailed, but not all sails are custom made. If they’ve made in a time zone 12 hours away it’s pretty tough to work out the details in real time. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of realizing this working with designers in NZ at times. It can be a huge PITA.

So, the moral of this story is, “profitability is not always a good business model”. What’s tuff these days is trying to find young people who are interested in getting into sailmaking. As other facilities shrink up there really is good opportunity here. I suppose that I could go on about my business forever, but I’ll end it here.

 

[George Hackett]

thank you mark for that write up. everything you had to say made sense. cool.

i remember Hard Sails well when i was working for Horizon Sails in South Norwalk, Ct.

 

[inhiding]

A lucid, informative post.

Reminds me of the early days of Sailing Anarchy.

Thank you, Mark!

 

[Rail Meat]

After reading these posts I have a few things that Id like to say from the prospective of a sailmaker with 38 years of experience in the industry.

I own a sail loft on Long Island in New York. I began making sails on Long Island for a company called Hard Sails in 1978. At the time I believe there were 7 sailmakers on long island. Although there are still a few places on the island that sell and service sails were the last loft that actually build sails here. Its true that we can purchase sails for less than we can build them for. It just makes sense that reducing costs (less people, space & equipment) and increasing margin (centralizing manufacturing and capitalizing on the scales of economy) will always increase the bottom line. For a time, if you can keep your customer base, that is obviously true.

What I have seen is that as technology advanced and communication & shipping became easier sailmakers began to consolidate. Having sails built overseas or by low-cost US facilities seemed to make perfect sense. It was a natural progression to centralize manufacturing. If you could purchase sails for less than you could build them for then why would you continue to make them at all? A transformation in the sailmaking industry began here. Larger sailmakers acquired or setup affiliates as sales outlets and service lofts. Over the years small lofts have either morphed into a service loft, something else or have vanished completely. Sailmaking is nitpicky, technical work. Some sail groups do not want to make sails at all any longer. They want to design and sell sails and leave the making part to someone else.

What we have seen happen on a local level is that service lofts have lost the capability to properly provide service to their customers. They do not have the staff, expertise, equipment, space or materials on hand to deliver professional sail repairs & and other sailing services like rigging, bending & the like, in a timely fashion. Weve had people pick their sails up from other places and bring them to us for repair simply because they were sick of waiting. Weve done repairs for other facilities and have lent out equipment to them. Our loft is capable of building just about anything. Simply because we were the only loft in the area capable of doing the work weve done a good bit of IMOCA 60 service work & Mega Yacht (100+er) repairs. Weve seen one of our major competitors go out of business recently. We also have it on good authority that we have been gaining market share from another major competitor for years.

I believe that it is very important to stay involved in sailmaking if you are serious about being a good supplier to your market. For a while now weve been deeply involved with single & double-handed distance racing sails. Weve been working with RailMeat for years with his OCD Class 40 DRAGON (thank you, Michael). Among a number of other projects in this genera we recently delivered a suit of sails to Joe Harriss Akilaria RC 2 GRYPHON SOLO 2 for his solo, nonstop circumnavigation record attempt. These boats have new systems that are still under development. Developing details for these systems is very hands-on. I look at what other sailmakers provide and plainly see that personal involvement with a high level of sailmaking skill, coupled with international resources makes for better systems for owners and their sails. This makes for excellent product development and service. Its a little hard for me to explain but consider that all sails, to some degree, are custom designed/detailed, but not all sails are custom made. If theyve made in a time zone 12 hours away its pretty tough to work out the details in real time. Ive had the unfortunate experience of realizing this working with designers in NZ at times. It can be a huge PITA.

So, the moral of this story is, profitability is not always a good business model. Whats tuff these days is trying to find young people who are interested in getting into sailmaking. As other facilities shrink up there really is good opportunity here. I suppose that I could go on about my business forever, but Ill end it here.

I have been a customer of Mark's for almost 20 years. I have purchased piles of sails from him because they are fast, they get faster with successive design generations, they are finished well, hold up well, he provides superlative service and he stands by his product. I have my doubts that a service loft could achieve all that.

 

[Presuming Ed]

Hard sails. What a name.

 

[mark washeim]

thanks for the kind words

 

[Bruce Sutherland]

It is not just in the US and Aus -- we have had stunning service from Banks in the UK -- they measure - make in the UK -- seen it cut on facebook - deliver on time ... and they fit

 

[George Hackett]

It is not just in the US and Aus -- we have had stunning service from Banks in the UK -- they measure - make in the UK -- seen it cut on facebook - deliver on time ... and they fit

hey bruce. bruce banks sails. they are a class act and started the whole computer cuting generation of sailmakers. and they were the first to come up the tri-radial spinnakers. i gave them fourteen years of my life here in manila. started with them through steve benjamin before he went to north. brought stever out here and that is how he started his long history of asian wins. eventually i left banks to go back to the technology i help launch. Tape Drive. i was with Horizon Sails Ct. when Horizon launched Tape Drive. this is the tech. that butch wanted and eventually got. and UK Sails has done some great stuff with the grandfather of string sails.

 

[Rushman]

It is not just in the US and Aus -- we have had stunning service from Banks in the UK -- they measure - make in the UK -- seen it cut on facebook - deliver on time ... and they fit

hey bruce. bruce banks sails. they are a class act and started the whole computer cuting generation of sailmakers. and they were the first to come up the tri-radial spinnakers. i gave them fourteen years of my life here in manila. started with them through steve benjamin before he went to north. brought stever out here and that is how he started his long history of asian wins. eventually i left banks to go back to the technology i help launch. Tape Drive. i was with Horizon Sails Ct. when Horizon launched Tape Drive. this is the tech. that butch wanted and eventually got. and UK Sails has done some great stuff with the grandfather of string sails.

So you are the reason my knees are shot!

 

[George Hackett]

It is not just in the US and Aus -- we have had stunning service from Banks in the UK -- they measure - make in the UK -- seen it cut on facebook - deliver on time ... and they fit

hey bruce. bruce banks sails. they are a class act and started the whole computer cuting generation of sailmakers. and they were the first to come up the tri-radial spinnakers. i gave them fourteen years of my life here in manila. started with them through steve benjamin before he went to north. brought stever out here and that is how he started his long history of asian wins. eventually i left banks to go back to the technology i help launch. Tape Drive. i was with Horizon Sails Ct. when Horizon launched Tape Drive. this is the tech. that butch wanted and eventually got. and UK Sails has done some great stuff with the grandfather of string sails.

So you are the reason my knees are shot!

hey rushman, not following?

 

[duncan (the other one)]

this is the pick up thread from the one asking about how long one must wait for a new sail. that thread went in a direction, good or bad, that needs to be discussed. it is unfortunate that Hyde Sais got picked on, but they did open up an overseas operation to help bring cost down? or to boost thier proofit margine? so has North, Quantum, and many other well known, top tier Sailmaking Companies.

so let hear what you all have to say? for me, it is corporate greed and cheap boat owners.

who says boat owners owe you a living ?

You're in a competitive environment. Its always about service and cost of the product.

 

[glowmaster]

I worked at Hard Sails in Islip back in the 70s before joining Spencer Sails in Huntington.

Those t shirts might as well have been uniforms.

long f-ing time ago.

These days I personally know my Salesman, and recently met the designer of my Norths. That offsets not knowing the Sri lankan that sews them a little.

ed

 

[Gouvernail]

Thirty years ago lots of things were manufactured in the USA. My customers were buying new boats, having sails sewn locally, and I was tricking them out and maintaining them with American made tools and paints from anerican owned companies.

For the last thirty years the UDA has averaged about a $30,000,000,000 monthly trade deficit or ten bucks a person per month.

That overseas spending has constantly increased and the USA deficit is more like $15 per ordon per month today

It has come to the point most of my former customers can no longer afford to maintain their crappy thirty year old junk boats .

Sitting on our asses and hiring somebody else to do all the work is slowly catching up with all but the very most wealthy.

But those are the same people who own the government

 

[Islander Jack]

The mid to late 20th century was a sweet era for the USA. Europe and Japan were WWII craters. Russia, China, and India mummified themselves in Socialism. Central and South America continued to wallow in wealth-destroying populism and corruption. Australia and New Zealand were agricultural economies. Meanwhile the USA had huge, unbombed industrial capacity. The American economy had virtually zero foreign competition, and the rest of the world needed US industrial output so badly that any American who wanted a well-paying job could get one. Want a boat or an airplane or a vacation cabin? Just go get a job.

A few decades later, as Japan and Europe recovered from WWII and Eastern Socialism receded, the world's productive capacity caught up. First in textiles and automobiles, then electronics. Then, well, everything, even sails. Pay is equilibrating around the globe, lower here in the USA, higher in countries that have recovered from the 20th century's nightmares.

Before long the price of a foreign sail will be about the same as the price of a local sail, both out of reach of the regular guy, whatever his nationality.

 

[Dex Sawash]

The mid to late 20th century was a sweet era for the USA. Europe and Japan were WWII craters. Russia, China, and India mummified themselves in Socialism. Central and South America continued to wallow in wealth-destroying populism and corruption. Australia and New Zealand were agricultural economies. Meanwhile the USA had huge, unbombed industrial capacity. The American economy had virtually zero foreign competition, and the rest of the world needed US industrial output so badly that any American who wanted a well-paying job could get one. Want a boat or an airplane or a vacation cabin? Just go get a job.

A few decades later, as Japan and Europe recovered from WWII and Eastern Socialism receded, the world's productive capacity caught up. First in textiles and automobiles, then electronics. Then, well, everything, even sails. Pay is equilibrating around the globe, lower here in the USA, higher in countries that have recovered from the 20th century's nightmares.

Before long the price of a foreign sail will be about the same as the price of a local sail, both out of reach of the regular guy, whatever his nationality.

Hooray, feudalism is fun!

 

[Rum Runner]

The mid to late 20th century was a sweet era for the USA. Europe and Japan were WWII craters. Russia, China, and India mummified themselves in Socialism. Central and South America continued to wallow in wealth-destroying populism and corruption. Australia and New Zealand were agricultural economies. Meanwhile the USA had huge, unbombed industrial capacity. The American economy had virtually zero foreign competition, and the rest of the world needed US industrial output so badly that any American who wanted a well-paying job could get one. Want a boat or an airplane or a vacation cabin? Just go get a job.

A few decades later, as Japan and Europe recovered from WWII and Eastern Socialism receded, the world's productive capacity caught up. First in textiles and automobiles, then electronics. Then, well, everything, even sails. Pay is equilibrating around the globe, lower here in the USA, higher in countries that have recovered from the 20th century's nightmares.

Before long the price of a foreign sail will be about the same as the price of a local sail, both out of reach of the regular guy, whatever his nationality.

There will always be another poor country to exploit. Now the Asians are the cheap manufacturers. Next it will be Africans, Eastern Europeans, Central Americans. Who knows, maybe the next area to find cheap manufacturing will be the old rust belt states in the US after all the factories are gone. There are lots and lots of poor people to exploit.

 

[sailman]

You say exploit others say offer opportunities.

 

[CrushDigital]

You say exploit others say offer opportunities.

There's a lot of truth to this, especially these days. I don't think many factory workers in central China are pining to go back to subsistence farming.