What kind of wire are my shrouds and stays?

TheDragon

Super Anarchist
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East central Illinois
Thanks longy and sassafras, I don’t think there is much more I can add to my current backup system in case a cable lets go. I will try to source some additional dyneema, maybe get my wife to send me a couple more of the nice dyneema car tow ropes, but even now there is no way I can lose the mast, the supports I have added ensure that.
 

tane

Anarchist
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Will say have followed Dragons progress, stuck it out through cv shit show and went sailing, armchair criticism aside I think he is far from the above reference, he has been making informed decisions the whole way. I wish him well and hope he adds to safety factor, single handed or no best to be cautious.
"armchair criticism"....sure, what would Zonker & I (just e.g.) know...
 

TheDragon

Super Anarchist
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East central Illinois
tane, I am taking your and Zonker, and other's advice seriously. I know I need new rigging, it's just a matter of when and how. My judgement is that the backup system I have now will survive, and as you said in one post, it will certainly keep me on my toes with early reefing, etc. We will see.
 

tane

Anarchist
951
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to mitigate my somewhat harsh earlier comments:
from my own experience I can confirm, that swages at deck level (in the "catch-water-position") deteriorate much faster than the ones up the mast (swaged end pointing down).
what I saw too during an inspection of the rig of a Solitair 52 at our base: a broken outer strand far away from any swage, the 2 ends at the break had pulled away from each other ~10mm (!). Rig age <10 years, discontinuous rigging, this was on a V2 as far as I remember.
 

hdra

Anarchist
663
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I have broken a strand on a wire at a top swage before, so don't get too comfortable if you just redo the bottoms. If there's any way to replace the wire before heading to sea, I would do it. I broke strands at the bottom swage on my port aft lower mid pacific, replaced it with dyneema, and then broke strands on the starboard forward lower at the upper swage, so swapped the top section of the broken port shroud to that side and wire clamped it to the unbroken bottom piece of that shroud - it lasted another few thousand miles, but I sure as fuck didn't sleep well. Get that wire changed as soon as you can. If you are sailing on the old rigging, be especially careful to keep throttled down upwind - shock loading as you launch off waves is what broke both of my shrouds.
 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
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Canada
I had wire pull out a few cm from an upper swage. Still intact but the wire got dramatically loose. Very strange.

I agree that replacing the forestay is vital.

But I think cost out the price of machining new s.s. chainplates in NZ. I'll bet a lot less than the PS versions. Use any money saved there for the forestay.

Keep your eyes out for older "used but still OK" sails if your budget is super tight. Good idea on fitting the spare main for the NZ leg. Mainsails are always set so it should be the first to be replaced. Staysail would be very low on the priority list unless you always sail it as a cutter with both foresails in use. Most staysails last decades due to lack of use.
 
"armchair criticism"....sure, what would Zonker & I (just e.g.) know...
That was in reference to El B' dig, kind of a low blow. Based on all said, certainly would be working on budget to pull rig and give everything a once over at the next place possible. Agree rigging in Panama was really tough, one of the better guys got stuck in UK, the good south African guy had a heart attack etc. Fatigue doesn't always show on SS, by the time it does then everything is definitely suspect. I would probably start asking around to get the repair resources circle closer, never know what people have ratholed on islands.
 

El Borracho

Verified User
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Pacific Rim
That was in reference to El B' dig, kind of a low blow. Based on all said, certainly would be working on budget to pull rig and give everything a once over at the next place possible. Agree rigging in Panama was really tough, one of the better guys got stuck in UK, the good south African guy had a heart attack etc. Fatigue doesn't always show on SS, by the time it does then everything is definitely suspect. I would probably start asking around to get the repair resources circle closer, never know what people have ratholed on islands.
Yeah, I was wrong. I misspelt ‘Rimus’. :) Perhaps I have underestimated the sensitivity of posters to a silly jab. However the astounding lack of maintenance revealed each week on SA is disheartening. Being in Panama is no burden on replacing standing rigging. Perhaps I overestimate the technical aptitude of sailors setting off across oceans. But questioning oneself before departure if the standing rigging is reasonably fresh wouldn’t seem to be too high of a bar.

That said, lengths of Dyneema are great for temporary rigging. However going up the rig at sea is a daunting task. Also, creating secure, chafe-resistant terminations while providing necessary tension is not a simple as it may at seem during planning.
 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
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When we lost a lower shroud it was simple - wrap dyneema rope around the front of the mast and the spreaders a few time. Not aft where it would get in the way the mast track. Then down to deck. Removed the turnbuckle, fitted a 4:1 purchase with a block shackled to the chainplate and another tied to a figure 8 at the lower end of the rope. Then took the tail of the purchase to a staysail winch (could have been a halyard winch, whatever). Lots of tension available.

If an upper shroud had failed - I would have just taken the tail back to a primary winch via a sturdy snatch block. Cross sheet the genoa if required to use a winch.
 
El B think it was a series of poor context, for a competent DIY Panama is fine it's Miami lite with a couple week lead time but you need to know exactly what you want and how to install. I met a herd of single handers in Vista Mar who were competent sailor's but made no profession of being NAs or riggers or etc. They wanted to go sailing and reached out for the best advice they could get. Some good some horrific. I do have a small connection to Dragon as we suffered the same CV19 fuck show trying to get to our boats. It is interesting that in my six month prison sentence trying to get back home to the boat I found only two boats willing to take me as crew, I'm a 20 plus year professional mariner not smuggling drugs. One was a beat to shit bene 50 on its way to OZ, seemingly competent captain who was willing to take on way more than I thought ok but alot of miles and very thorough in all details, total shit crew. That boat I almost went on, it lost steering on way to Fiji, had to repurpose lifelines for steering cables and the main unzipped with all the slides failing. The boat I ended up taking home was a $1.5m 65' new boat. The furler cannonballed twice due to incorrect instillation by the "best riggers there are" and during the trip I slept under the main sheet arch that was constantly working and moving?? All is subject on boats, anyone advertising certainty is full of shit. I appreciate someone coming with a honest question and respecting responses, I think Dragon fits that. I have no patience for the dirtbags preying on everyone from one fuckup to another, don't see Dragon in that category.
 

jonathanvolkner

New member
11
1
The standing rigging on my 1989 PSC34 is failing with broken strands at most of the bottom swages. No surprise given the age. I would like to replace the swages with long-stud Sta-lok self-fit terminals with threads into the existing turnbuckles. The wires are 7mm in diameter with 12 strands on the outside. What kind of wire is this and would it be one of those Sta-lok says works with their units, "right hand and left hand lay 1×19, 7×19 7×7 and compacted strand stainless steel wire rope"

Thanks for any advice.
Considering the age of your standing rigging, I would very much recommend to replace the wire also. Wire rope manufactorers do only produce S or Z wire rope these days. I forgot, which one is available today. I would use a 1X19 wire rope. If your turnbuckles are ok, you can use StaLock or TyeTec stud self fit terminals. You should know wire size and type (propably 7mm 1x19) and the dimensions of your turnbuckles. Propably 1/2" UNF. And you shoud find out, if it's right hand or left hand thread. You could contact these guys for help: https://www.tyetec-loop-products.co...terminals/terminals/#cc-m-product-11374037449 I know for shure that they've got self fit stud terminals in both directions. May be not directly in their shop. Just ask.
 

TheDragon

Super Anarchist
3,132
1,085
East central Illinois
Again, thanks all. I am now in the Bay of Islands in Vanua Balavu, the most northerly of the Lau Group, and surprised to have cell reception with a phone up the mast as relay hotspot. I had a tough upwind beat from Matagi Bay to Wailagilala Atoll, really cool place with tens of thousands of noddies and boobies. Anyway, I was motorsailing with half jib and staysail, both led to inside blocks and sheeted hard flat and main on first reef and engine running around 1500 RPM, and making 4-5 knots average for 14 hours with three tacks, each barely at 90 degrees. We were heeled 15-20 degrees the whole day, so I checked the shroud and backstay tension using the Loos Gauge. Windward shrouds had all gone from 700 lbs to 1000, leewards from 700 to 300, and backstay from 1000 to 1600. All of that seems reasonable to me. No new wire breaks on any of them. I have ordered three more 50ft dyneema winch rope or car tow ropes and will use them to backup the forestay, backstay, and the upper shroud that does not already have one (claimed to be 8500 lbs breaking strain, same as my 1/4" cables). I also ordered 8 long-stud Sta-Loks (1/4" wire to 1/2" UNF threads) at a huge discount (50%) off retail, so that seemed like a reasonable deal. In Vuda Marina in October I will decide whether to get new wire as well. I will nevertheless leave most of my backups, the stout sheets, halyards, lifelines, and dyneema lines because in addition to the security they provide really nice handhold alternatives to grabbing the shrouds.
 

CapDave

Member
488
460
Antigua
Here's a first shot at a resource for you to work on your rig in Fiji; sounds like he has inventory that would cover you - you might be surprised how cheap it would be to run up a new gang of rigging. I've also got a couple of emails out and will let you know what replies I get.

Westside Rigging and Wire Ltd.​

Business Address​

Bruce Vasconcellos, Lot 2 Dreketi Feeder Rd, Saweni, Lautoka (Vuda Point Marina), Viti Levu, Fiji
Email:
[email protected]
Number:
006799998838

Business Info​

Opening hours: 8 am to? call phone always on!
Located just around the corner from Saweni Beach in Lautoka. Rigger for 42 years. Has knowledge on most rigging problems and how to fix them here in Fiji. Stocks 3mm up to 16 mm wire and fittings sizes (and imperial sizes), top grade Kos Hammer and Hammer Pro (Dyform) wire, Norseman and Sta-loc wedges, regatta swage fittings and turnbuckles. Stocks and can get most furler parts and have some Profurl and Harken foils in stock. Rig checks for insurance. Are connected with Navtec, Harken, Ronstand, Lewmar, Profurl, Factnor, Z-spar masts and track, Isomat, Swedish and French brands. Also, do small repairs and make new sails, canvas and cushions. Rolly Tasker Sail maker reps for new sails and masts out of Thailand.
 

CapDave

Member
488
460
Antigua
Here's some local knowledge:

I've phoned around and the main rigger, Bruce at Westside Rigging is retiring / retired but may be worth a call on 9998838.

The better bet sounds to be Colin, who I believe used to work for Bruce. I have just been told that he has recently set up Yacht Rigging Solutions operating out of Vuda Marina:

Colin +679 2929633

Vuda Marina +679 6668214
 

Sanders

New member
3
1
Aruba
Looking at this picture at least one strand seems to be broken inside the terminal. Also; looking at the age of the rig just replace all the wire. Dropping a mast is expensive. Not only mast but also probably pulpit(s), railing, Maybe lost sails and running rigging if you have to cut the mast away. Not considering the person who just happens to be sitting on the leeward side.
 
A few days late and a few dollors short but FMAS!!!!
Sailing to NZ to re-rig? Stuff that!! I would be flying to NZ to buy new wire, sta-loks, and turnbuckles and flying it back to the boat.

Bin there , done that in 2013. Flew all the kit out to Chile from Australia and did an 80% re-rig there - left backstay and forestay until I arrived in NZ in 14. Rig was 10 year old.
Still managed a rig failure on the way down to NZ
 

TheDragon

Super Anarchist
3,132
1,085
East central Illinois
So I have chosen to leave Sea Change in Vuda Marina in Fiji because it turns out they have plenty of in-water place in their fancy circle cyclone hole, not to mention cyclone pits on land, which are a lot more expensive. So I have taken the advice of several folks here and in my Sailing the South Pacific thread to just fly to NZ next March for a month of touring in a campervan. And today the local rigger, a young guy called Colin, checked my rigging and agrees that the wires look fine and the top swages are fine, so helped me get the forestay and furler off and we put a long-stud Sta-Lok on that and I then did the rest of them. Great easy technology and seems bombproof. Just to sleep well, I will also back up the forestay, backstay, and upper shrouds with dyneema, plus the lower shrouds with stout sheets and racket straps, which together make for a great handhold as well for my arthritic hands. Thanks all for your advice, but I am confident I can complete my circumnavigation with this setup. We will see. Back to the boat in April.
 

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