What's in your arsenal??

Vgree

Super Anarchist
4,433
164
OKC, Oklahoma
Thoughts on this concept?
Horrible idea, gel isn't a human body, giant tissue displacement in the first few inches of a gel block means very little to stopping a threat. Will it work to stop someone, probably, but is it the best choice, absolutely not.

The reality is pistols suck at stopping people. 95% of all "stops" are psychological, meaning the bad guy thought "ouch" and stopped the attack. A 22lr will accomplish that most of the time. The other portion of stops you have to actually physiologically stop the subject and pistols don't do that well, there are only two ways to do that in reality. You let enough blood out and air in that their blood pressure reaches a point they can't function or you hit something in the central nervous system and turn off important switches.

Rifles and shotguns do a much better job of this due to the sheer amount if kinetic energy the are capable of. Rifles travel at a high enough velocity that the wound cavity damages tissue, pistols don't do that, sure the tissue will stretch but not enough to damage that issue and create that hydrostatic pressure wave that effects areas the bullets don't actually hit.

With a pistol your best bet is to find a good bonded round that will reliably reach a depth where it can effect important things that don't respond well to bullets. I don't care if it's 9mm, 40, or 45 they all suck at ending threats, we only use them because they are easy to carry and they are all near the top end of what most people can effectively shoot from a pistol.

The three rounds I suggest for pistol rounds are

1. Hornady Critical Duty
2. Speer Gold dot
3. Federal HST

I carry the Hornday in 9mm+p.
 

veni vidi vici

Super Anarchist
2,107
435
Horrible idea, gel isn't a human body, giant tissue displacement in the first few inches of a gel block means very little to stopping a threat. Will it work to stop someone, probably, but is it the best choice, absolutely not.

The reality is pistols suck at stopping people. 95% of all "stops" are psychological, meaning the bad guy thought "ouch" and stopped the attack. A 22lr will accomplish that most of the time. The other portion of stops you have to actually physiologically stop the subject and pistols don't do that well, there are only two ways to do that in reality. You let enough blood out and air in that their blood pressure reaches a point they can't function or you hit something in the central nervous system and turn off important switches.

Rifles and shotguns do a much better job of this due to the sheer amount if kinetic energy the are capable of. Rifles travel at a high enough velocity that the wound cavity damages tissue, pistols don't do that, sure the tissue will stretch but not enough to damage that issue and create that hydrostatic pressure wave that effects areas the bullets don't actually hit.

With a pistol your best bet is to find a good bonded round that will reliably reach a depth where it can effect important things that don't respond well to bullets. I don't care if it's 9mm, 40, or 45 they all suck at ending threats, we only use them because they are easy to carry and they are all near the top end of what most people can effectively shoot from a pistol.

The three rounds I suggest for pistol rounds are

1. Hornady Critical Duty
2. Speer Gold dot
3. Federal HST

I carry the Hornday in 9mm+p.
Well the Civil Defense round is all about kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what type of Hellfire missile that took out the Taliban guy last week. No explosive charge in that missile.
The ballistic gell is a relative comparison used all across the ballistic testing. I am not trying to argue with you. The higher kinetic impact is certainly a factor in neutralizing a threat regardless if it ultimately strikes a vital organ.
The is no clear answer to any of this discussion otherwise there would be no discussion, to gain in one area is to loose in another.
It always comes down to shot placement.
 

Point Break

Super Anarchist
26,110
3,747
Long Beach, California
You can read lots of arguments about “stopping power”…….for me it’s about layers of deterrent. First….the chances of being chosen by a bad guy to enter my home at night is so very low as to be infinitesimal. Then the layers….house is securely locked at night…..I have an alarm system……I have two dogs that sleep on the first floor……..if an intruder gets past all that and decides to head up the stairs I have two options (now one with a light 😉, guess I need the other as well) should the bad guy be determined. I have adopted V’s suggestion of a verbal warning to “get out I have a gun”. Assuming the vast majority of bad guys wish to avoid a fight and chose an easier target that should be enough (although it occurs to me getting past the dogs would be no small effort and proof of intent). I cannot imagine all those things would still lead to a need to defend but I have spent a lifetime preparing for unlikely things that did happen anyway so I consider these questions however remote the chance. So as far as choose between the Mossberg or Glock re: stopping power, I pick the Mossberg largely because I would not want a .40 round miss to sail off into someone else’s house and our houses are pretty close. The arguments debating which has more “power” to end the threat seem logical on both sides of the argument. So I wind up concluding the 12 ga. miss will not carry as far and either choice requires shot placement to be successful. Since I won’t be “clearing” but instead will be “hold and defend” mobility is less critical. Anyway…….so much for the subject. I appreciate the dialogue here as it has modified my thoughts on the subject….I think for the better. I consider it a shame I even have to think about it but I’m no Pollyanna about the world. I feel it’s information I’ll never need but glad I have it. Thanks ya’ll.
 

Vgree

Super Anarchist
4,433
164
OKC, Oklahoma
Well the Civil Defense round is all about kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what type of Hellfire missile that took out the Taliban guy last week. No explosive charge in that missile.
The ballistic gell is a relative comparison used all across the ballistic testing. I am not trying to argue with you. The higher kinetic impact is certainly a factor in neutralizing a threat regardless if it ultimately strikes a vital organ.
The is no clear answer to any of this discussion otherwise there would be no discussion, to gain in one area is to loose in another.
It always comes down to shot placement.
You are 100% correct that the Civil Defense advertise based on the kinetic energy the round has, but keep in mind that you have to deliever that energy to important bits. The extremely light rounds of the Civil Defense don't penetrate while maintaining that velocity. They dump all their energy in the first few inches of tissue. They advertise 450 ft/lbs of kinetic energy while most of the brands I recommended above are in the 325 to 350 range. A decent rifle round will be well over 1000ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards and a shotgun in the range they are meant for will be well into the 1200ft/lbs range. So they aren't even in the same league as rifle and shotgun rounds and only slightly over a normal pistol round while giving up penetration and carrying that energy deeper into the body.

You are correct that ballistic gel is a standardized testing medium, it doesn't mean that is what we expect to see in living tissue. Without bones, changing density, and clothing of different types a lot of rounds look good in ballistic gel. Throw in those complications, not to mention barriers that you might have to address, and a good bonded round such as the ones I listed will always have better results in real life conditions.

I'll say again, pistols suck at stopping living things, that's why we don't regularly hunt with them and don't use them as primary weapons for war. They are just convenient and they work the majority of the time. There are no magic solutions to make a pistol some super lethal weapon, people shot with pistols have a 93% survival rate.
 

veni vidi vici

Super Anarchist
2,107
435
I had not owned a firearm in over 40 years before the “summer of love” and LEO’s ordered to stand down, of course in the county I live in no such silliness would be tolerated. Nevertheless after months of watching in disbelief I weaponed up. As I said above my living situation is now such that I can’t imagine ever or any circumstance that I would need a firearm for self protection, I am not a carry outside the home mentally. I also decided that while a RDS is probably advantageous, witnesses competitive shooters, they would probably not be a difference maker in the one time I would ever have to use a pistol for home defense. Shooting is just a hobby now, and my millennial sons are going to think WTF , dad was a hard core prepper what did he need all this for.
 

Point Break

Super Anarchist
26,110
3,747
Long Beach, California
I had not owned a firearm in over 40 years before the “summer of love” and LEO’s ordered to stand down, of course in the county I live in no such silliness would be tolerated. Nevertheless after months of watching in disbelief I weaponed up. As I said above my living situation is now such that I can’t imagine ever or any circumstance that I would need a firearm for self protection, I am not a carry outside the home mentally. I also decided that while a RDS is probably advantageous, witnesses competitive shooters, they would probably not be a difference maker in the one time I would ever have to use a pistol for home defense. Shooting is just a hobby now, and my millennial sons are going to think WTF , dad was a hard core prepper what did he need all this for.
Yep…..I got out of the military in 1976 and gave Uncle Sam his guns back. Never touched one again till - reluctantly - 3 years ago judging the world was evolving and perhaps I was as well. Now I shoot quarterly. Don’t feel one way or the other about it, although I get the zen moment of mastering all the factors to shoot well. I get that same feeling out of my archery with much less noise 🤣. Come to think of it it’s same feeling trying to master golf and pickleball. Anyway, I’m very glad to have ability to choose.
 

Liquid

NFLTG
4,448
739
Over there
I currently live in a historic district and homes are old and close together...

It's the reason I don't use a rifle as my home defense and I don't have an SBR. I have a 9MM with jacketed HPs in the bedside safe.

The military SF guys asked for and got the 300 BLK for CQB. I'd build one but the rounds are ~$3, yet compatible with my currently jailed Wolfman suppressor! I can get a CZ Scorpion Evo 3... I can build an AR-9, I can buy a cheap pump 12G and saw both ends down but that's not going to look good with the jury or state law! Even bird shot penetrates a lot of sheet rock after 28"....

@Vgree or anybody wanna take a few key strokes on the FN 5.7 pistol/round? Rifle velocity with a tiny pistol round. A grown up 22lr?

I just watched this:

 

timbrown

New member
7
4
Just read a pretty interesting discussion on Glock Talk about this question. Some answers are just internet tough guys (those are easy to spot, they’re everywhere) but overall I found the discussion interesting. For what it’s worth…….
Good stuff, thanks. I've been browsing GT on and off and yeah, a lot of wannabe tough guys(but pretty much just like any other gun or sports related forum)
 

Point Break

Super Anarchist
26,110
3,747
Long Beach, California
Picked the TLR7A. Smaller size does not protrude past the end of the barrel. Light is way more the enough. Tested it last night. I can hit the on/off from either side without changing my grip. Happy. Now have to head to the range and shoot it. Wish we had an outdoor range nearer than Corona. Oh well.

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D4CC1D84-B3CB-4045-8726-FB0B1DA02B4C.jpeg
 

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
6,500
1,000
San Diego
PB - you might consider adding a bright light to the stairwell that shines down the staircase. Mounted in the riser? Bright enuff to prevent intruder from making out anything past/above the light. There are light switches with bluetooth now that can be activated from phone if wiring is difficult.
 

veni vidi vici

Super Anarchist
2,107
435
PB - you might consider adding a bright light to the stairwell that shines down the staircase. Mounted in the riser? Bright enuff to prevent intruder from making out anything past/above the light. There are light switches with bluetooth now that can be activated from phone if wiring is difficult.
And a trap door at the base of the stairs
 

Point Break

Super Anarchist
26,110
3,747
Long Beach, California
Neither was mine, actually neither am I, but ….
Nor I. But….I don’t dislike it either. It’s a tool and I’m really appreciative of all the advice and experience here. It’s been very helpful. One thing is certain, if I have something that can kill I will be absolutely as competent as I can be. I don’t take the process casually. On one level I’m a little sad that I feel it’s a good idea. If you’ve been around here a while you may be aware I’ve debated acquiring a HD gun for years. Satisfied with my decision. I will admit the task of getting the groupings on target carries some satisfaction as well. I’ve always enjoyed anything that combines physical and mental effort to achieve an outcome so that part is pretty interesting.
 

Liquid

NFLTG
4,448
739
Over there
PB - you might consider adding a bright light to the stairwell that shines down the staircase. Mounted in the riser? Bright enuff to prevent intruder from making out anything past/above the light. There are light switches with bluetooth now that can be activated from phone if wiring is difficult.

Fucking brilliant!

A user activated, bluetooth, interior spot light...




Is there a motion sensor app that wakes you up and tells you turn the light on?
 

timbrown

New member
7
4
Picked the TLR7A. Smaller size does not protrude past the end of the barrel. Light is way more the enough. Tested it last night. I can hit the on/off from either side without changing my grip. Happy. Now have to head to the range and shoot it. Wish we had an outdoor range nearer than Corona. Oh well.
Does it have laser too?
Was thinking about getting one for my Springfield Emmisary ( not this particular model, but Streamlight nevertheless). It should arrive next weekend from https://gritrsports.com/springfield-armory so might aswell look into optics and light for it.:cool:
 
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