Where to get educated - Looking at cruising cat ownership

[MauganTornado]

Hello Thundermuffin,

Having gone through the process of trying to research as much as possible about catamarans I found there was a lot of information but a lot of it did not pertain to what I was actually looking for. For Sue and I we found that we ended up writing down what we actually wanted in a cat and not what other people tell you what you want.

The main things we considered (not here in any priority) were live-ability for what we wanted, safety, sea going ability of the vessel, resale, age, speed to a degree (we wanted a vessel that would get us to a destination in a timely manner), galley up or galley down. Good pedigree and reviews, storage, good under motor as well as sail, bridge deck clearance (important) storage and very importantly it could be sailed by two and one if necessary and of course price - value for money.

Surprisingly I found that there are not a lot of multihull forums that deal with cruising. Cruisers Forum is probably one of the few sites other than SA that has a dedicated multihull forum and sub sites for named brands such as Lagoon, Fountain Pagot, Antares etc. Lots of good information there.

As with any sail boats there are pro's and con's for all multi's. We just settled for one that fit the vast majority of our needs.

You tube has some great video of different cats in different conditions and sail configurations and a lot of good information can be gleaned form trolling these videos. There is a very good series of videos by the Catamaran company that deals with what they have found with prospective purchasers. I have absolutely no affiliation with them but there was some good stuff in it. Same with a series by a couple who own an Antaries Cat. Very informative.

There is a lot of hype with Cats and you have to be able to work out what the sales hype is and what the reality is. Yes cats sail flat but by heck you still gotta hold on in a seaway. A lot of monos will outsail and out pace you - but they are normally your modern day race boat.

Our boat is 12 metres, 7 metres wide weighs close to ten ton, we do roughly half wind speed and we normally average 8 knots on a trip. Acquaintance has just purchased a38 ft Pescott Cat. Weighs just over 4.5 ton. Single outboard in central well and has daggerboards. Will sail to 30 degrees and cruise at 12 knots under sail. Does not like a seaway but will get you anywhere quick. Sacrifices some level of comfort when at anchor compared to production boats but its exactly what the new owner wanted.

We were incredibly lucky in being able to do a short delivery trip up the East Coast of Australia in a 43 ft Fountaine Pajot. Weather was perfect for us to see the boat in adverse conditions, wet, miserable big seas. We quickly saw what worked and what didn't, what we liked and what we disliked. Any boat should perform on a sunny day in 10 to 15 knots on a bay or lake. Take it to sea and into proper sea conditions that you are likely to encounter and you soon work out how good a boat is.

I like the idea of a charter in an area or crew on a delivery trip where you are likely to experience real sea conditions and you will quickly see the good, the bad and the down right ugly. One of the things I did do when researching was using google and just type in the vessel type and then the word review. Quite often there were many owner reviews as well as professional reviews. It was this method that I found the main issues with our model of boat (lagoon) not an issue in itself but it allowed me to check the boat more thoroughly when looking.

Sorry if I have rabbited on here but the question does not have a short answer. Please feel free to email me if I can offer any further insight into how we went about our purchase. I am no expert by any stretch. Just some one who went through what you are doing now.

Greg and Sue

SV Sunshine

Lake Macquarie

New South Wales

Australia.

Thank you for this! Very informative. We have two charters lined up on cats before the end of this year and it's going to give us a good idea of what we like and don't I feel. Taking a boat out in "sporting" conditions is part of any thorough vetting process

 

[Rantifarian]

Plenty of cats have never been sailed in over 15 knots. PO of the boat my parents bought had never had the main up in more than 20 knots, and never gone faster than 16 knots, test sail was in 25 knots and the boat hit 19. Don't be surprised if you encounter issues the PO has no idea about

 

[Panoramix]

I don't know much about catamarans but I think that you need to have a look at Outremer. From what I understand they are somewhere between gunboats and the floating houses on 2 hulls.

 

[Moonduster]

Chris White's book remains the bible, although it's quite dated now. Pay particular attention to what he writes about LOA. As I recall, he strongly recommends against offshore cruising in cats as small as you're describing. I think his minimum was in the 50' range.

My own experience is that 60'+ cats are great, 43' is hell. And it's critical that you keep the weight off the cat. White talks about this, too. And don't forget the problems and costs associated with finding marina berths, moorings and haul out facilities for cats - these are a killer.

If you're budget constrained, I'd seriously skip the multihull approach and go for a 40ish' racer/cruiser with emphasis on keeping the weight low.

Good luck!

 

[Rantifarian]

What was Chris white's reason for recomending such big boats? Motion in a seaway or carrying capacity? 50' of cat is a big pile of boat for 2 to handle

 

[harrygee]

A well-built, well designed cruising cat of forty feet or more will be as seaworthy as any boat that can be easily handled by two people.

Centre-boards can be retracted when conditions overwhelm your ability to actively sail yourself out of trouble and I'd strongly recommend that option.

I've surfed sideways over 30 hours in a 30 foot centre-board cat, Pretty grim but the boat looked after me.

I'd be looking for something like a Fastback 43, solid glass, single board in starboard hull (no noticeable downside compared with two boards), single diesel with lifting leg, eight knots typical cruising speed.

Surely there's someone turning out wholseome cats like that in your part of the world?

Good luck.

 

[harrygee]

A well-built, well designed cruising cat of forty feet or more will be as seaworthy as any boat that can be easily handled by two people.

Centre-boards can be retracted when conditions overwhelm your ability to actively sail yourself out of trouble and I'd strongly recommend that option.

I've surfed sideways over 30 hours in a 30 foot centre-board cat, Pretty grim but the boat looked after me.

I'd be looking for something like a Fastback 43, solid glass, single board in starboard hull (no noticeable downside compared with two boards), single diesel with lifting leg, eight knots typical cruising speed.

Surely there's someone turning out wholseome cats like that in your part of the world?

Good luck.

OOPs, seems I sent that twice. I'm not to be trusted with a keyboard.

 

[LMI]

Chris White's book remains the bible, although it's quite dated now. Pay particular attention to what he writes about LOA. As I recall, he strongly recommends against offshore cruising in cats as small as you're describing. I think his minimum was in the 50' range.

My own experience is that 60'+ cats are great, 43' is hell. And it's critical that you keep the weight off the cat. White talks about this, too. And don't forget the problems and costs associated with finding marina berths, moorings and haul out facilities for cats - these are a killer.

If you're budget constrained, I'd seriously skip the multihull approach and go for a 40ish' racer/cruiser with emphasis on keeping the weight low.

Good luck!

That is not correct.

He said 40 foot and maximum static righting moment nearing 100,000 foot pounds. And he designed his Atlantic series for offshore cruising to this.

 

[Veeger]

Veeger -

Permit me a question on the type - purposefully on a thread not likely to hit on a key word search.

How do you feel about the safety of that cockpit - greatroom - semi open pilot house in big water? Do you have concern over immediate flooding in the event of a capsize? Have you taken any steps to mitigate the concern and if so what were they?

Don't know if you read on the topic or talked w the guys who went over in Anna which is not a MC and has fully enclosed pilothouse. It was interesting how quickly the trapped air pocket dissipated. Friend went over on a boat of similar type to MC and commented that the semi enclosed pilot house flooded instantly, while he was trapped by the enclosures and barely made it into the hulls.

Sorry for the delay. Currently, my own MC (no longer under my ownership) has gone from the PNW thru the canal and is in the San Blas Islands. A sister ship is in NZ, having sailed from Maine on a slow cruise (Leisurely).

IF a MC 41 ever capsizes, it will be because it either got hit by a microburst or was sailed by idiots. (A micro burst might well take the rig first) In any event, while it may still float, it won't sustain you till rescue. Inverted, there is no place to hide inside above the water level. You couldn't stay in there, the water would be 6' deep and nothing to stand on.

The Sa/ D ratio is likely too low to have an event similar to the Anna incident--esp loaded for cruising. The bridge deck enclosure is an absolute treasure and asset to the MC. Protection from sun, wind and spray but excellent all around visibility. Easy to ventilate in the tropics but quite an effective greenhouse in temperate regions. Would you be trapped in the event of a capsize? You would more likely get hurt falling across the bridge deck. If the enclosure were to be compromised, the hatches into the hulls can be secured. Probably ot watertight but they would likely only allow minimal water intrusion below. The scuppers are big but probably not big enough to drain a greeny fast enough to get the water level below the companionway sills before 'some' water came below. The reality is that being well above the lwl to begin with, the cockpit isn't likely to get filled the same way a monohull might expect.

PS. Don't take it offshore in a hurricane or off Hatteras in the winter and you won't have any issues.

 

[Speng]

It'd be interesting to see what's available in the US with this description. I see a lot of people cruising on 40-45 ft cats but those are pretty large boats. the typical "entry level" boats from the big manufacturers are in the 11m range and they still have a lot of space inside. I reckon they start off at this size so they can more easily meet ISO Category A which implies decent seaworthiness. A lot of people pooh-pooh the seaworthiness of the typical production boat but your typical Lagoon 38 on charter in the Caribbean almost certainly sailed from France and the Leopards sail from South Africa.

For what you've described I'd be looking in the 35-40 foot range rather than the 40-45 foot range. Unfortunately the choices aren't so good in the US. The euro is super weak right now though so trolling over there might be worthwhile.

If I were looking for something performance oriented in your size range maybe one of these?

I suppose one of Farrier's F44 that you can have built over in the Philippines might be worthwhile. It seems like his builder is pretty good and the money's not bad but then you have to get it to the Gulf Coast.

Dazcat 1195 is built in England but evidently they've sold one to somebody in the US (GBP to USD exchange rate isn't so favorable as the Euro one though) and they're fairly quick, race proven and (I think) good looking

 

[USA 007]

I'm delivering a Conser 47 next month from Nassau to Savannah. I'll give you my thoughts afterwards. it seems like the type of cat you would be interested in. Much more performance oriented than cruising. It has a wing mast, roller furling reacher and screecher, daggerboards, etc.

The previous owner singlehanded it from Florida to Australia and averaged 12 knots...

 

[seeker321]

Hey ThunderMuffin, I'm circumnavigating on a Chris White Atlantic 55. Also, like you, was previously a pretty hard-core (and winning) keelboat racer. I don't charter my boat. However, I'd be more than happy to have you aboard as crew for an upcoming offshore leg if you're interested in seeing how a "well-sorted" semi-performance cat handles in real-world conditions.... Currently in Palau (likely, you've never heard of it -- Google it), and heading to the Philippines in a week or so. From there, up into SE Asia.

For that matter, open invite if anyone is looking to experience some incredible sailing!

Pm me if interested.

Cheers,

Colin

Ps., our boat and voyage so far can be found at http://facebook.com/SailingWithSegue

 

[Remodel]

Call Gino:

Morrelli & Melvin Design and Engineering, Inc.
201 Shipyard Way, Suite B
Newport Beach California, 92663 USA [map]
tel: +1 949-612-8087 | fax: +1 949-612-7583 | [email protected]

 

[Keith]

Hey ThunderMuffin, I'm circumnavigating on a Chris White Atlantic 55. Also, like you, was previously a pretty hard-core (and winning) keelboat racer. I don't charter my boat. However, I'd be more than happy to have you aboard as crew for an upcoming offshore leg if you're interested in seeing how a "well-sorted" semi-performance cat handles in real-world conditions.... Currently in Palau (likely, you've never heard of it -- Google it), and heading to the Philippines in a week or so. From there, up into SE Asia.

For that matter, open invite if anyone is looking to experience some incredible sailing!

Pm me if interested.

Cheers,

Colin

Ps., our boat and voyage so far can be found at http://facebook.com/SailingWithSegue

This is your best chance to get real hands on cat sailing / cruising experience, on a cat actually designed to sail..... Go for it.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

I sure am tickled shitless with my old (1992) Catana. I would caution to primarily consider first or second generation Catanas, as from 1994 on, ergo after Crowther's death, they are much different boats than the earlier models.

I know of a Catana 39S in the Carib (it has tillers!) that recently crossed the Atlantic to get there, and there are a couple of 42S for sale. check out catamaransite dot com for deals on used boats (site is a Catalac site, but he hosts all sorts of used boat by owner offerings)

In fact, you'd be surprised at the turn of speed of quite a few older model cats - Crowther designs come to mind. AFAIC, it might be well worth buying the older, cheaper boat and customizing it to your liking (sounds like you're not immediately sailing away) rather than buying the newer boat on which you'll want to likely change quite a few things anyway.

Shuttleworth boats are also quick, if rather sparse, but then you're considering a Seawind, so have a look at Shuttles

Can't emphasize enough how instructive it will be to charter boats, even boats you're not thinking about, because you will then learn what you don't like and get an eye for what you do want

Tarjan is fluff. Go read Gavin le Sueur. As for older books, never mind how old the books are, the points are still relevant, and White's 'Cruising Multihull' is good stuff too

Schionning has some quick stuff out there, Barramundi ain't cheap but they look nice, Grainger...

Took me years, like three years, to find a boat. Don't be in a hurry, but if you see what you want, be ready to get it

 

[MauganTornado]

Thanks everyone for your recommendations - Mike I'll give you a call about that Conser and get your thoughts on it. Turns out life change #1 isn't happening but plan B is already in effect - and it might bring us closer to the water than we imagined (but it will be frozen water)

At any rate, I enjoy checking out all of the recommendations that everyone has posted.

Colin D: Would love to take you up on the offer to host me for a leg. Unfortunately with some of the life changes going on mentioned above - its going to be tough to get to that side of the globe this year. Maybe if you get closer we can hook up for a couple days.

We've decided that we're going to charter no less than half a dozen times on different boats before we make our final decision... its going to be a long term process, plus - we have to pay off the wife's ridiculous med school debt first!!