Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics

EYESAILOR

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The IOC has finally woken up and realized that World Sailing has proposed an Olympic Class/Discipline without an existing world championship ,  exclusive and expensive to participate in for those outside of the wealthiest nations and problematic from TV Coverage.

Its a shame because media coverage probably could have been amazing.

This is not the thread to debate the pros and cons of the offshore double handed discipline.

Instead let this thread look at the alternatives . If the offshore event is thrown out.....what can it be replaced with?

Sailing gets 10 classes.

The 10 classes are currently dispersed among 4 major categories of sailing

1. Dinghies/skiffs -5

2. Multihulls - 1

3. Board- 3

4. Keelboat -1

I think the dinghy /skiffs are in good shape with men and women single hander, men and women double hander and a mixed double hander. Dinghies do not need an additional class.  It is the heart of competitive sailing, accessible to most nations and relates to mainstream of the sport so it is right that dinghies/skiffs should account for 50% of the disciplines.

Mixed multihull is doing well attracting good teams. There should always be a multihull discipline.

Boards are a growth area in sailing. I disagree with the allotment of 2 to windsurfers and only 1 to kitesailing, I would make it the other way around.  The discipline is difficult to set up as mixed so I would prefer to see a Mens and womens kite boarding. The sport could easly become the most exciting to watch in all the summer olympics and re-establish sailing's importance in the Olympics. It deserves at least 3 slots and in the future should include freestyle. However I cannot see reducing the other categories so unless IOC is so wowed by kite boarding that it gives an additional slot, its 3. 

Keelboats.  There is a real risk that if the offshore discipline is dropped, the keelboat slot gets allocated to either dinghies or boards.  I think this would be a grave error. Keelboat racing is one of the largest and most important categories of the sport in the real world. Sailing olympics without keelboats would be like distance running without the marathon.  inshore short course keelboat racing overstayed its welcome with the Star......a magnificent boat but dated (in the olympics since 1932).   I would like to see WS have  a back up plan in case the offshore event is terminated and offer an alternate modern keelboat for inshore racing. A 2 or 3 person mized gender sportboat like the RS21, VX One, Viper, or something similar.  A modern equivalent of the  Tempest.

Thoughts?

Another dinghy?

Another board?

Another multihull?

Or preserve one discipline in keelboat racing

 

stief

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What monohull big boats fleets exist that have enough class structure to race internationally?

Mini, IMOCA and Class 40 come to mind.

Would really like to hear Burling and Tuke's answer (written would be better) to your question.

 

Potter

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Nothing. Internal bullshit from WS means sailing will lose an event at the Olympics. 

 

fastyacht

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I don't really understand the star being dropped. So what if it was designed a long time ago? The Tempest was a flop. Speedy semi-dinghies aren't "keelboats." Not to me. Having raced on the same course with Vipers, I will tell you that they are ballast assisted dinghies.

The cool thing about the star was the combination of utter brutality with extreme tweak. There is really nothing else like it. And it was a perfect platform for older skippers. As a former star crew, I can tell you it is sometimes brutal.

And, perhaps importantly, the star did not suffer from Olympic Destruction Syndrome. All the others did. Even the laser is freaking ruined compared to before. The star actually benefitted. Strange that. Who sails a soling? Hahahaha. (OK yeah I know there were a few "pockets" of them...)

 
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Bowchow

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I don't really understand the star being dropped. So what if it was designed a long time ago? The Tempest was a flop. Speedy semi-dinghies aren't "keelboats." Not to me. Having raced on the same course with Vipers, I will tell you that they are ballast assisted dinghies.

The cool thing about the star was the combination of utter brutality with extreme tweak. There is really nothing else like it. And it was a perfect platform for older skippers. As a former star crew, I can tell you it is sometimes brutal.

And, perhaps importantly, the star did not suffer from Olympic Destruction Syndrome. All the others did. Even the laser is freaking ruined compared to before. The star actually benefitted. Strange that. Who sails a soling? Hahahaha. (OK yeah I know there were a few "pockets" of them...)


Totally agree with you fast. 

While slow and old, there is no other boat like the star. A decent boat can be had for under 10K, and all fleets will go out of their way to help newbies enter the class. From a fleet perspective, there is NO other class that allows you to be on the same line with the legends of the sport. Easy to film, proper sailboat racing, decently strong class (and working on making it stronger) all over the world.

Cons:  Lacks the "adrenaline" of the faster classes (to a TV non sailor viewer), it's not a female friendly boat.

If we are looking at the IOC/olympics to breath life back into sailing, we are on the wrong side of the course. 

 
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TJSoCal

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If they're looking for an established class, why not something like a J 70 or similar?

I'm thinking parameters ought to be:

Under 30 feet, trailerable & shippable 

Crew of 3-5, plumbed however you please 

Planing sprit boat

Non-carbon rig & sails to keep campaign costs down and keep focus on the fundamentals of sailboat racing - boatspeed, boathandling and tactics

Probably an inshore W/L course - easier logistically and easier media coverage

 

Bowchow

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If they're looking for an established class, why not something like a J 70 or similar?

Non-carbon rig & sails to keep campaign costs down and keep focus on the fundamentals of sailboat racing - boatspeed, boathandling and tactics


All J70's have a carbon rig... Have you ever tried maintaining a team of 3-5 for the years that it takes to properly have a go at a campaign? 

 

EYESAILOR

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I think the whole concept of a keelboat at the Olympics is at risk.

WS has managed to evolve the dinghy , multihull and board classes, albeit slowly.     

Offshore two handed was a brilliant idea but very difficult to introduce as a new Olympic sport.     It checks too few of the boxes.

Due to athlete limits, it must likely need to be no more than 2 person. Due to gender equality it almost certainly has to be mixed gender. 
 

woth clean sheet of paper, you would not come up with Star
 

 

EYESAILOR

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Are they? Kiteboards peaked 15 years ago around here. If there's a growth area in sailing at all at present, it's foiling dinghies.
So do you think a one design moth would create a meaningful Olympic discipline?

It is a valid suggestion. The moth world championships seem to attract some of the worlds very best sailors. The Olympic competition would be rewarding true sailor athletes. It is reasonably affordable. It would not put pressure on the number of competitors.

What would the moth replace?

There are  two options:

Replace the keelboat. Should the Olympics exclude a keelboat discipline for the first time since 1900 (2nd olympics)?  

Replace one of the board classes  (racing windsurfers around courses is increasingly irrelevant)

2024 is too short notice to disrupt existing classes but I think windsurfing has to be under pressure for 2028.

If offshore event is ditched then Moth might be a class that could be ready by 2024 (which is very close)

One important factor is the time line.Only 3 years away, it will be hard to get a new class and athletes identified if WS strays too far into new ground

 

dogwatch

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For 2024, replace the keelboat. It is clear that IOC doesn't want it and the Stars seem to be getting by fine without being an Olympic class.

Criteria from https://www.sailing.org/news/90896.php and I'd love to hear the Star proponents explain how it goes along with gender equality or universality.

Any late submission must be in the respect of the replacement event only (and not any associated Regulatory changes) and the alternative event proposal must adhere to criteria framework provided by the IOC which is outlined below:

1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes
2. Keep full gender equality on both number of events and athlete quotas (e.g. alternative mixed-gender events or split of currently approved mixed events into men's and women's events)
3. Prioritise universality and maximise the accessibility of the sport
4. Should have been previously tested at the respective World Championships organised by World Sailing
5. Should not cause an increase of the overall cost and complexity for the Paris 2024 Organising Committee, National Olympic Committees and/or National Federations, specifically in the direct comparison with the sailing programme, as a whole, in Tokyo 2020
6. Use of existing venues/Fields of Play

 
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EYESAILOR

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For 2024, replace the keelboat. It is clear that IOC doesn't want it and the Stars seem to be getting by fine without being an Olympic class.
It is clear IOC doesn't want the offshore event. 

In hindsight, the event was not checking the boxes with IOC and the advocates for the event within WS ignored the warning signals.

On the plus side, it offered gender equality.  I also think IOC underestimates the media opportunity because they view in solely through the eyes of TV rights . I suspect it could have been an interesting streaming event with a tracker on each boat , a streaming boat cam and coverage of start and finish.  But the IOC probably does not want to distract its media organization with such a custom coverage for one event.

On the negative side, it was very expensive and exclusive. Complicated to cover. IOC is asking, where is the existing competition? Who are the world champions? etc.

The star has evolved post Olympics into something sustainable and probably doesnt need to go back.

It will be interesting to see what WS chooses to replace the event with

 

dogwatch

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In hindsight, the event was not checking the boxes with IOC and the advocates for the event within WS ignored the warning signals.
I am not one of those who likes to throw rocks at WS at all opportunities but in this instance, the warning signals were abundantly clear at the time. 

 

EYESAILOR

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The IOC are crystal clear that an alternative event must be proposed, and although WS will continue to campaign for the offshore double handed event and that it remains WS's first choice, WS is going to respond with an alternative.

Here are the criteria specified by IOC

  1. Align with Olympic Agenda 2020+5, including relevance to the youth, innovation, universality and participation of the best athletes
  2. Keep full gender equality on both number of events and athlete quotas (e.g. alternative mixed-gender events or split of currently approved mixed events into men's and women's events)
  3. Prioritise universality and maximise the accessibility of the sport
  4. Should have been previously tested at the respective World Championships organised by World Sailing
  5. Should not cause an increase of the overall cost and complexity for the Paris 2024 Organising Committee, National Olympic Committees and/or National Federations, specifically in the direct comparison with the sailing programme, as a whole, in Tokyo 2020
  6. Use of existing venues/Fields of Play

#2 is key, so WS has to offer either a (i) 2 person boat with M/F crew or (ii) offer a single hander with gender neutral possibility or (iii) Replace one of the mixed classes with a separate male and female event.

#4 means that it has to be an existing world sailing class that has hosted a world championship. The list of world sailing classes

#3 means it cannot be absurdly expensive
 

There is no way that the Finn and Star can come back because it doesnt comply with #2.

In reverse order of options

(iii) It is possible that either the mixed 470, mixed nacra or the mixed kite events could be replaced by stand alone M and F events.    The mixed 470 is popular with IOC and is a good platform for mixed crew so I doubt WS goes down that route.  Mixed gender kite racing is a bit unequal because strength does matter. The sport itself outside of Olympics is based on M and F divisions, so possibly a womens kite event and a mens kite event. Nacra racing is probably too far along with teams built around the pairs.   If they go down the third route, my bet would be kites first or possibly 470.

(ii)  The only single handed where weight and strength is less important would possibly be a moth. Even in the moth, the medals would be dominated by men. 

(i) New double or triple handed class with an existing world championship that is suitable for mixed crew that is reasonably affordable.  

The list of classes that hold world championships is not that long. See here : https://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/index.php

A small modern keelboat would be easy to be gender neutral. There are only 4 classes to choose from : J70, SB20, Melges 20 and Viper  640. The first J70 and Melges 20 are probably too expensive and the Viper would probably hate to see their "No professional" atmosphere killed by becoming an Olympic class.

Under centerboard, I dont see a double handed class that adds anything over and above the 470.

So I conclude that WS has to either

Splt the kites into M and F

Split the 470 into M and F

Add the Intl Moth.

Add the Viper or SB 20 with max crew weight limit and M/F requirement.

 

Glenn McCarthy

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Using all launch ramp boats eliminated the cost of a crane and hoist, wiring underground to the crane and hoist and deeper water for the keelboats.

Once keelboats were eliminated, this ended paralympic sailing. Paralympic boats need a crane and hoist to launch.  And the paralympics do not have the income to support the infrastructure, they must use the leftover infrastructure from the Olympics.

 

Admiral Hornblower

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In my opinion there should be another multihull class, like the one above that is really made to foil, both upwind and down. The Nacre is quite bad at foiling and wasn't really designed to foil anyways.

It would be fabulous having a class like this in the Olympics!

 
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