Which Class will replace the offshore double hander in Olympics

Laurent

Super Anarchist
2,214
1,799
Houston
Get sailing out of the olympics and nobody will notice.
One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,834
2,540
One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???
As Glenn said, some littel drop in the bucket (4 mil?) came ast time we actually had some medals. The money doesn't amount to squat. Heck, I think I spent that much in gas, tolls and sails last 10 years in my dinghty ;-)

 
Last edited by a moderator:

apophenia

Anarchist
The Olympics are an excuse to put in a bunch of stadium infrastructure. Regattas require a race committee at the start and finish line and not much else. The real problem is that sailing isn't expensive enough.

The solution is to build an international sailing circuit that is more fun for competitors and more profitable to operate than the Olympics. The top level events draw in the elite of the elite, but local feeder events should be tiered so that anyone can compete at some level. 

Alternately, figure out how to "require" some ludicrously expensive regatta infrastructure so that locals with political pull have an interest in making the event happen.

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,085
1,576
There is already gender equality with single handed dinghy - Laser Radial and then the Standard Laser. Am I mistaken?

What is missing in the Olympics is a boat that a heavier male can sail. The Star and Finn were two such boats but the Star is gone and the Finn will be gone. This is excluding a significant population of global sailors (males) who are too large to be competitive in a Laser / ILCA. 
You are correct there is currently gender equality:

Men : Laser. 49er  Mens windsurfing = 3 male events

Women : Laser radial. 49er FX  Women Windsurfing = 3 Female events

Mixed : 470 , Nacra , Kite Boarding = 3 mixed events.

The IOC has mandated that the tenth class must maintain gender equality.

As a women sailor, I have to say that WS and IOC are overthinking gender equality. Nevertheless the mandate from the IOC is that the 10th class must maintain the existing gender equality.   I agree there should be a class which can accommodate the large athletic male.  The population of men who sailed Finns and Stars competitively are forever excluded from sailing and that does not make sense.

A legs in hiking keelboat class which rules required a women sailor which would then put a premium on big guys would be ideal. 

  • Preserve at least 1 keelboat discipline
  • Enable large men to sail
  • Mixed Gender.

But I just dont see the class that would do thiis. The star is not suited for Mixed gender sailing and it would probably ruin the Star class. The Vipers dont want pro sailors in their class.

An idea that I would love is team racing because it would be such a great spectator sport but it requires to many athletes. Although, why couldnt 3 members of the team racing squad be drawn from the rest of the Olympic team ....no different than the track and field athletes who participate in more than one disciline.

My thought on team racing is that each country can bring 3 specialist team racers and the other 3 sailors come from the rest of the squad. 

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,834
2,540
You are correct there is currently gender equality:

Men : Laser. 49er  Mens windsurfing = 3 male events

Women : Laser radial. 49er FX  Women Windsurfing = 3 Female events

Mixed : 470 , Nacra , Kite Boarding = 3 mixed events.

The IOC has mandated that the tenth class must maintain gender equality.

As a women sailor, I have to say that WS and IOC are overthinking gender equality. Nevertheless the mandate from the IOC is that the 10th class must maintain the existing gender equality.   I agree there should be a class which can accommodate the large athletic male.  The population of men who sailed Finns and Stars competitively are forever excluded from sailing and that does not make sense.

A legs in hiking keelboat class which rules required a women sailor which would then put a premium on big guys would be ideal. 

  • Preserve at least 1 keelboat discipline
  • Enable large men to sail
  • Mixed Gender.

But I just dont see the class that would do thiis. The star is not suited for Mixed gender sailing and it would probably ruin the Star class. The Vipers dont want pro sailors in their class.

An idea that I would love is team racing because it would be such a great spectator sport but it requires to many athletes. Although, why couldnt 3 members of the team racing squad be drawn from the rest of the Olympic team ....no different than the track and field athletes who participate in more than one disciline.

My thought on team racing is that each country can bring 3 specialist team racers and the other 3 sailors come from the rest of the squad. 
3 person J24 wirh 155 jib would dothe trick. Require female helm. That is worth equal with two brawny trimmers:)

Heck

Just make star requir female skip.

 

Foreverslow

Super Anarchist
The Finn produced some of the most famous Olympians of all time ...Paul Elvstrom, Ben Ainslie, Russell Coutts.   There must have been something about the boat that attracted so much talent.

But It doesnt maintain gender equality so sadly, its not going to be the Finn.
Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,834
2,540
Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,085
1,576
Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.
My bad.....I meant 3 of the most famous sailing Olympians. I apologize I did not mean to exaggerate .

I think that most people who follow the sport of sailng know of Paul Elvstrom, Russell Coutts and Ben Ainslie.  My point was that all three medalled in the Finn as opposed to other classes. The Finn has gone and I dont think it comes back but I was giving credit to the class as having attracted some of the greatest sailors.

 

crashtack

Member
474
349
Get real..

I'd put up a grand wager I can walk into the US Olympic training Center in Colorado Springs and ask the first 3 athletes  I happen upon to name the sport each of these Olympians succeeded in and they would not have a clue.

Sailing as an Olympic sport is in there with the little girls jumping around with a ribbon attached to stick..

https://www.olympic.org/gymnastics-rhythmic

Nobody cares except their parents...
What a braindead take. Who cares how many people can name sailing olympians? I can name the gold medalists of maybe 5 sports, does that mean we should just cancel the rest?

 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,173
1,225
South Coast, UK
One could argue that the Olympics are sucking all sailing funding for Olympics classes only, and elite sailors only. And therefore it is not beneficial for "the rest of us".

But what is going to happen if sailing is no longer an olympics sport? Does it mean that the meager available funds are redistributed with positive impact to the average sailor (or sailor wanabee)?

Or does it means that the funding simply disapear???
In the UK, money for sport comes from two separate budgets, “community” and “elite”. For a sport to be eligible to benefit from elite funding, it needs to be on a targeted list which is essentially sports in which GBR is winning Olympic medals. So if sailing exits the Olympics, all elite funding ceases to flow into sailing. That supports sailors and coaches but also builds infrastructure and programmes that benefit the sport in general.  I can think of instances of sailing clubs receiving community funding but they are few and far between.  If sailing no longer received elite funding, it would go to other elite sports, not other aspects of sailing.

 

shebeen

Super Anarchist
in my humble opinion, the way to do this is to look at 2024 Paris and 2028 LA as a springboard for the keelboat future.

France - this is the world centre of double handed sailing. leverage it.

Figaro 3 is already there. you can easily hold a world champs before then and it will be awesome. easily done with mixed gender and a range of sailor weights.

France would have a massive advantage, but they only get one slot - imagine the competition in 2023 to win that slot?

Then once to the games, offshore sailing always has a bit of lottery, the gold medal would be anything but a sure thing.

No reason to think why you can't have something similiar for LA 2028 with an offshore race on the west coast, include a mark in (eg) San franc and you bring the games to a wider geographic audience. 

Dropping the keelboat now would be a mistake, use what is already there and you have plenty of time to work on improving for 2032.

BUT, much bigger issue is olympic sailing fullstop

Step 1 - accept that the current system is incredibly elitist.

Step 2 - decide if you want to change that or keep it as is.

shifting a class here and there is not going to change much.

ALSO.

this is not limited to sailing alone, but my feeling is that the olympic yardstick of gold/silve/bronze and the rest don't care is outdated.

Now that we have professional sportsman, making a top10/olympic final is an incredible achievement.

To dedicate 4 years of your life to a 30% chance of an olympic top 10 and a 5% chance of a medal is the reality for a lot of talented sailors. If you don't have a national funding program in place and don't live in europe then this barrier to entry is just too steep to do it self funded. Either world sailing puts a hugely funded program for nations outside the elites or we will just get to the olympic regatta with 6/7 people capable of winning a medal, their training partners will whip the butts of those who come 15th who are there just to make up numbers. Hardly olympic.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
The IOC has finally woken up and realized that World Sailing has proposed an Olympic Class/Discipline without an existing world championship ,  exclusive and expensive to participate in for those outside of the wealthiest nations and problematic from TV Coverage.
As a French taxpayer, I am even more disappointed to have to foot the bill for the Paris Olympics. It is such an elitist and commercial event, why should we pay for it ?

The reality is that there is very little racing here in Olympic classes. OK, you can enter a local Laser race but you will race against teenagers and there are catamaran races but these are mostly raids.

If they want to be vaguely representative of the sport, think that proper offshore is too much for them and want small boats, they should organise some catamaran raids. To win, you need some seamanship whereas Olympic organisers seem to insist on races that are mostly tactical. Why ?

As for big boats being elitists, I am not too sure about this as lot of people learnt by being invited as crew on a bigger boat, it is a very efficient way of being mentored. Actually they could well organise semi-offshore competitions on 30 footers with 6 people on board, that would develop sailing across the world like the Tour de France à la Voile developed sailing in France. There is nothing like young guys on the foredeck and at the winches learning all the tricks from experienced guys driving and doing tactics behind. IMHO the 90s was when amateur (not professional) sailing was at his peak in France with lot of people racing at all levels on cruiser racers.

They won't do it... the Olympics are just yet another commercial operation profiting from young athletes, they just want something that can be sold to TV networks while the infrastructure is being paid by host nations! TV => Inshore stadium!

 

AnotherSailor

Super Anarchist
1,270
402
SF Bay
So do you think a one design moth would create a meaningful Olympic discipline?

It is a valid suggestion. The moth world championships seem to attract some of the worlds very best sailors. The Olympic competition would be rewarding true sailor athletes. It is reasonably affordable. It would not put pressure on the number of competitors.

What would the moth replace?

There are  two options:

Replace the keelboat. Should the Olympics exclude a keelboat discipline for the first time since 1900 (2nd olympics)?  

Replace one of the board classes  (racing windsurfers around courses is increasingly irrelevant)

2024 is too short notice to disrupt existing classes but I think windsurfing has to be under pressure for 2028.

If offshore event is ditched then Moth might be a class that could be ready by 2024 (which is very close)

One important factor is the time line.Only 3 years away, it will be hard to get a new class and athletes identified if WS strays too far into new ground
I like the Moth suggestion.

I must say that sailing is a tough sell, even to sailors. There are only so many people who will watch it. You can go the crash and burn side, which might attract some viewers. But watch those Australian skiffs and you are done after one race. I would say the Moth might be interesting since it provides a good balance of speed, stategy/tactics, and some crashes from which one can recover. 

 

Jethrow

Super Anarchist
But watch those Australian skiffs and you are done after one race
You're kidding right?

The 18's are the best REGULAR viewing of sailing on the internet! What are you proposing as being better?

The Moth class because the 18's don't capsize all over the place? I like the Moths and used to sail them. They don't WANT to be an Olympic class. The 18's don't want to be an Olympic class.

The last thing I can remember being televised from SanFran was KiteFoiling.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top