Who has the best national anthem?

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
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Suwanee River
True patriotism isn't what is prescribed as patriotism in this day.
A true patriot does what is morally, ethically, and personally correct/right. These days it seems that patriotism means blindly following a set of steps assigned to you and your neighbors by politicians who are paid for by billionaires, and corporate boards of directors.
I don't pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, nor do I pledge allegiance to a republic for which a piece of cloth stands. I pledge allegiance to my own moral values as taught to me by many, many good people who know much more collectively than I could ever hope to skim the surface of.
No flag, no speech by a puppet will ever affect me the way that my mentors/heroes/teachers/parents have.
 

Point Break

Super Anarchist
26,621
4,427
Long Beach, California
True patriotism isn't what is prescribed as patriotism in this day.
A true patriot does what is morally, ethically, and personally correct/right. These days it seems that patriotism means blindly following a set of steps assigned to you and your neighbors by politicians who are paid for by billionaires, and corporate boards of directors.
I don't pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, nor do I pledge allegiance to a republic for which a piece of cloth stands. I pledge allegiance to my own moral values as taught to me by many, many good people who know much more collectively than I could ever hope to skim the surface of.
No flag, no speech by a puppet will ever affect me the way that my mentors/heroes/teachers/parents have.
We are different. Watch TV and see some extremist this or that espousing some action we all know does not align with our national values is perverting patriotism under a false flag. Just like all Muslims are not evil……all Christians do not molest children…….all Atheists live immoral lives without a rudder to steer them…..those are all false equivalencies. Stop watching so much TV news.

By the way if you think you are actually pledging allegiance to a cloth you’re completely missing the point. When I joined the military I took an oath that swore I would support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. You thank me for my service and at the same time espouse the notion that you reject those values and are intellectually and morally an island of one?

We likely are more similar in our values than different but I don’t get how patriotism and nationalism became identical in some minds.
 

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
27,422
4,051
Suwanee River
We are different. Watch TV and see some extremist this or that espousing some action we all know does not align with our national values is perverting patriotism under a false flag. Just like all Muslims are not evil……all Christians do not molest children…….all Atheists live immoral lives without a rudder to steer them…..those are all false equivalencies. Stop watching so much TV news.

By the way if you think you are actually pledging allegiance to a cloth you’re completely missing the point. When I joined the military I took an oath that swore I would support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. You thank me for my service and at the same time espouse the notion that you reject those values and are intellectually and morally an island of one?

We likely are more similar in our values than different but I don’t get how patriotism and nationalism became identical in some minds.
 

NaptimeAgain

Super Anarchist
1,709
393
Annapolis MD
The US Pledge of Allegiance literally is "to the flag..." https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm

I don't think this discussion is about questioning the services furnished by American in any settings, not just the military or first responders. People doing good things may have very different motives. Another thread discusses Medal of Honor awardees. Did they make their noted sacrifices for their brothers in arms or for some abstract political ideology? Beats me, but I think we can generally acknowledge the enormity of their sacrifices.

Many people in government jobs take oaths to defend the Constitution etc. I've done it several times. The challenge is when the domestic "enemies" happen to be elected officials who wrap themselves in a flag (or maybe a stage full) while attacking the core principle of America.

Below from wiki article on Samuel Johnson.

The Patriot[edit]​

In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made a famous statement: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."[8] The line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general but rather what Johnson saw as the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham(the patriot minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed patriots" in general but valued what he considered "true" self-professed patriotism.[9]
 

Virgulino Ferreira

Super Anarchist
1,387
1,340
Brazil
I am (pleasantly) surprised by the number of people who named La Marseillaise. If you understood the words, you may reconsider, though... It really is a war song.
I have learned some interesting things in the last few days about the history of La Marseillaise in Brazil, and how our history connects with France and the USA.

I found this interesting article in a traditional newspaper from the state of Espírito Santo. I translated it in case anyone interested in American or French history might also find it interesting.

Some supplementary information for the article: in my basic education (K-12), which was pretty typical, we learned both English and French, and we studied both the American and French revolution, but we studied the French revolution much more in depth, if I remember correctly.


https://www.agazeta.com.br/capixape...a-era-entoado-nas-ruas-do-espirito-santo-0421

The time when the French anthem was sung in the streets of Espírito Santo state

The French influence came to Brazil through the ideals of freedom of the French Revolution and a "frenchified elite”, children learned the language at school and the march was sung on commemorative dates


There was a time when "La Marseillaise", France's national anthem, was chanted in the streets and schools of Espírito Santo. One of the main symbols of freedom, inspired by the French Revolution, the march was just one of the customs "imported" from the French, adopted mainly by the elite of Espírito Santo. In the political field, the influence of French ideals boosted the popularization of the republican movement in the state.

The customs were not exclusive to the people of Espírito Santo. At the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century, the European country was an example for the adoption of customs all over the world, including Brazil. Besides the influence in the political field, with the propagation of republican thought, French was considered the main diplomatic language, often taught in schools. "The language, the fashion, the dress, the popular songs, everything had the French influence," reports historian Fernando Achiamé.

Much was due to a "francophile elite," who spent vacations and study periods in France and then returned to Brazil. "The North American influence in Brazil is a post 1930 thing, especially after World War II, in 1945. Before that, however, the Brazilian elite is extremely frenchified. People knew French, they studied it in schools, it was the second language that was taught, they tried a French menu, fashion, the stores sold perfumery", points out historian Estilaque Ferreira dos Santos.

Especially on the political plane, French ideals were "palpable". The French Revolution, which had marked the end of the previous century, influenced the independence of Brazil, still in 1822, and later in the popularization of republican thought, which culminated in the proclamation of the Republic in 1889.

"The repercussion that the French Revolution had in the world was an extraordinary thing, including in Brazil. Independence, in 1822, has everything to do with the French Revolution, it is the revolution that put the world on the road to modernity," Santos points out.

La Marseillaise then became the main symbol of freedom throughout the world. "Obviously, the repercussion (of the French Revolution) was very much associated with the anthem that was identified by people as the anthem of freedom, of the resurrection and redemption of peoples," he explains.

"In the 19th century, La Marseillaise was identified as a symbol of freedom. A symbol of all people who were fighting for autonomy and freedom" Stilaque Santo, Historian

Independence, however, did not result in a republic, but rather a monarchy. Years later, the Republic was proclaimed. In Espírito Santo, the main center of the republican movements was in the municipality of Cachoeiro de Itapemirim. Here, names such as Afonso Cláudio and Muniz Freire, who was not a republican but sympathized with the movement, already began to question the model of the monarchy. To make it clear that they were opposed, they refused to use the monarchist symbols and embraced symbols linked to freedom and autonomy, like the French ones.

"Around 1870, the republican movement began to articulate itself in Brazil and in Espírito Santo. This movement started to claim freedom against the monarchy that ruled the country. And it also started to take up again the ideas of the French Revolution, not in a radical sense, but in a more moderate sense that, even so, recovered some of the symbols of the revolution", he points out.

Also on March 4, 1887, an article published in the newspaper A Província do Espírito-Santo referred to the French anthem as the anthem of freedom. The letter, sent from Paris to Espírito Santo, said: "The hymns of all countries are worthy of respect because they at least represent a sacred sign, the homeland. The Marseillaise, however, will never be equaled because it has in itself the admirable thing of representing not one people but all peoples, for everywhere where freedom arises it is to the sound of that glorious song which is the cry of the resurrection and redemption of the peoples."

When the goal was reached, with the proclamation of the Republic on November 15, 1889, Afonso Cláudio himself left registered in the book " History of the Republican Propaganda in Espírito Santo" how the celebration parties were on state soil.

"Long live the Republic! On the 16th at 6 o'clock in the morning, after posting on the door of the telegraph station the circular that we distributed in bulletins in which we gave an account of the proclamation of the republic and the constitution of its government immediately the Eturpe Cachoeirense band, gathered in the house of citizen Joao Loyola owner and manager of O Cachoeirense (newspaper of the time) and one of those who worked hard for the republican cause, leading this citizen and accompanied by other citizens, went through the streets of the town singing La Marseillaise to the explosion of numerous firecrackers and enthusiastic cries of viva! At noon, the band gathered for a second time, and at 1:30 pm went to the railroad station to wait for the president of the club. At the arrival of the train, which was decorated with flowers and red flags, the Marseillaise and shouts of cheers rang out," he wrote.

The anthem was also sung on official occasions. "There are reports from historians and newspapers that there was the custom of singing the Marseillaise on special occasions, such as when the first governor was sworn in in the state," recalls Achiamé. Afonso Cláudio, one of the main names of the republican movement in the state, was the first governor of Espírito Santo between the years 1889 and 1890.

The political scientist João Gualberto Vasconcellos points out that, when it was installed, the Republic needed to be discussed among the leaderships. "There was a great discussion here among our republican authorities about the model to be followed. There were the Jacobin republicans, linked to the French republic, and there were those linked to the American republic, like Rui Barbosa," he compares. It ended up that politically the American model was followed, but, symbolically, with a lot of French influence.

"The American republic prevailed, so much so that we came to call it the United States of Brazil, with federated states. And it was due a lot to the fact that the regional oligarchies wanted freedom, because the imperial government was very centralizing," says Vasconcellos.

"The model that prevailed gave a lot of freedom to the states, but from the symbolic point of view we were a totally frenchified republic João Gualberto Vasconcellos, Political scientist

Many years later, there are still records of the influence. People from Espírito Santo who remember learning French in school already in the 20th century and a call, registered in newspapers, for a nationalism that would leave behind the enthusiasm for France. In another newspaper, this time the Diário da Manhã that circulated in 1933, there is still mention of the Marseillaise.

"Everyone is a nationalist. The German, the French, the English, the Italian. Nationalists, except for us, the Brazilians," begins Abílio de Carvalho's text.

"90% of Brazilians know the Marseillaise. 8% know, even if incorrectly, the words to the national anthem. Now, it seems, with the new words of the espirito-santense anthem, the kids will know how to interpret what is ours" Abílio C. de Carvalho, columnist for the Diário da Manhã newspaper, 1933

The writer was referring to an alternative lyric to the Espírito Santo state anthem, written by Ciro Vieira da Cunha, which ended up not being accepted. "At that time, the state anthem was not very popular, not very well known, as it is even today, and what did they come up with? There was a very famous journalist at that time called Ciro Vieira da Cunha, he wrote lyrics to replace Pessanha Póvoa's lyrics, but they ended up not being accepted."

"The thing is that in 1933 they were still saying that 90% of Brazilians knew the Marseillaise better than the national anthem. An exaggeration, of course, but an identification of the anthem with freedom and revolution" Estilaque Ferreira dos Santos, Historian

And the influence is not restricted to the anthem. Before Espírito Santo had an official flag, with the phrase "work and trust", chosen by Jerônimo Monteiro in 1908, there was another, unofficial flag. There were only two colors: red and blue, inspired by the French flag, which, besides these two colors, also has a white stripe.

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Cachoeiro de Itapemirim, Espirito Santo, 1930 - Leopoldina Railway
 




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