Wide-open discussion of the loss of Low Speed Chase

phillysailor

Super Anarchist
8,868
3,659
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

 

U20guy2

Super Anarchist
12,330
3
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

 

GABA

Member
372
20
There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?
And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?

Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?

The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.

WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.

We need to have an open conversation now, too.

I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.

Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.
You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.
No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.

I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.

That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.

We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.
So now you are changing it from what was the "situation and the decisions and choices made" by the survivors, to "the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).". Lawyerspeak.

Of course the best information, and the ONLY information, available, is what is in the media. Trial by media - again?
Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.
I noted your comments in the other thread. "+ 1 Well said." Seems to be in conflict with what you write here.

 

ropetrick

Super Anarchist
2,646
237
JS take your attention whore trolling elsewhere.

Or contribute to the discussion.

This is not the Costa Concordia thread.

 
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us7070

Super Anarchist
10,264
284
1334698033[/url]' post='3676752']
1334697660[/url]' post='3676745']U20,

Well said. Without a doubt personal AIS is great addition, especially for other races in nearby waters that keep us out in those bumps overnight. The obvious product is a combo waterproof AIS and VHF handheld radio, but I haven't found one yet. There are small personal AIS devices (talked about HERE) but merging it with a handheld VHF would obviously be a big improvement as a lot of us carry VHF in our lifejackets so we can vector the boat back to us while we're swimming. I'd hate to give that away for a small personal AIS. Also, the two devices share a tremendous amount of technology so that from a cost point of view 1+1 doesn't equal 2, it equals about 1.4 of cost. While we're at it, we might as well mount a nice strobe flasher on top of the whip antenna.

I am a long way from getting over the loss of the LSC and her crew. Mark and Alan were friends after many CYC Friday night sails aboard LSC. They helped me out during a tough period and it is simply unimaginable that they're gone. I'm not looking forward to the next CYC Friday night race. Not at all.

Beau


I'll try to find the link - I posted it a few weeks ago.

There is a device designed for divers - it's a small VHF, with a GPS and DSC capability.

As you probably know, when activated, the DSC makes an audible alarm on the VHF of boats equipped with DSC VHF receivers, and the GPS location is displayed on the receiver display.
They have a pocket size EPIRB with a gps in it for about 300 bucks..afterthought..possibly if those lost could have activated the Epirbs..they. Just might have been found...there are many things in the water around this rock to where you are never found.
many of us have personal EPIRB's or PLB's..., but they are not really ideal for MOB situations.

The personal AIS is a great idea, because any nearby boat with an AIS receiver, which is now often required for offshore sailing, will see your position in the water displayed on their chartplotter in real time.

The satellite-based PLB's only communicate your position to a SAR center, and it can take some time for that position to be made available to boats nearby.

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
JS take your attention whore trolling elsewhere.

Or contribute to the discussion.

This is not the Costa Concordia thread.
Do you think the survivors, or their friends or relatives won't be reading this thread? Do you want to blame any or all of the crew, publicly? I will leave you to your trial by media - Idiot!

 
I am pretty surprised that there is a question about tethers being used or not in fresh conditions that can potentially roll a boat,

or put the deck awash. Especially where the locals say these swells can develop as they did in this area. And cold water. Many of you need a SAS seminar. First and most important rule is stay on the boat. There is no argument for not using tethers. The modern quick release will do so under load. The release is at your chest between your tits. One of your hands will get there. But like seat belts

people dont always use either at times when they should, myself included. Tethers = good. Getting seperated from the boat = bad. Always.

East Coaster - I believe there has been only 1 loss of life on the Bermuda Race in the early years which was a crew being transfered off a burning boat that was crushed between hulls. Block Island Race I know of one, Jaime Boekel (sp) a pro bowman who was struck in the head by a breaking spin pole in a squall and went overboard. An argument can be made a tether would have saved his life. There may be others but I dont think anything near this. Vineyard I dont know of any. Maybe an oldtimer can chime in.

I certainly hope this type of event dosn't affect race or CG regulations. I cant imagine tethering ever being being required.

Wouldnt want to see stand off marks either. Lots of races round rocks out in the sea. Part of the challenge and skill of distance racing is cutting things close without it going bad.

 
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bcopper

Super Anarchist
14,116
0
And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?

Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?

The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.

WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We need to have an open conversation now, too.

I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.

Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.
You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.
No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.

I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.

That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.

We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.
So now you are changing it from what was the "situation and the decisions and choices made" by the survivors, to "the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).". Lawyerspeak.

Of course the best information, and the ONLY information, available, is what is in the media. Trial by media - again?
Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.
I understand the concern for safety very well, but you seem hell bent on forcing an immediate discussion based on likely flawed information to learn some life saving lessons, and have taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of the entire sailing community to bring this discussion about.

If you're genuinely that concerned, and your situation is that urgent, I'd suggest skipping the next race or two to give it some time.

Are you planning on sailing to the Farallons anytime soon ?

What specifically do you expect to gain from an analysis of this situation ?

Have you taken the safety at sea seminar, taught by pros vs soliciting comments on a forum ?

No offense, but I question the urgency of your request given this accident just happened.

 
Fyg - This is what the Newport-Bermuda Race is saying about tethers. I am not relating this to the Farallones incident,

and what they should or should not have done. Its just info. But they are regulated at night. Thats a recent change.

5.02

Safety Harness and Safety Lines (Tethers)

BROC prescribes that safety harnesses and lifejackets shall be worn while on deck: (a) from sunset to sunrise; and/or when the mainsail is reefed or being reefed.

BROC prescribes that crewmembers on deck should wear a safety harness, an inflatable lifejacket equipped with a whistle, white strobe light, along with crotch/thigh straps. BROC reminds sailors that the US SAILING Prescription OSR 5.02.4 requires safety harnesses and lifejackets to be worn on deck from sundown to sun up.

BROC prescribes that safety lines (tethers) should have release-under-tension snaphooks at the body and be attached to non/low stretch jackstays (jacklines) or strong attachment points. Extra safety lines (tethers) should be provided for stations where handholds are not within easy reach.

5.02.1

Each crew member shall have a harness and safety line (tether) that complies with ISO 12401 or equivalent with a safety line (tether) not more than 2m in length.

Harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2010 shall comply with either ISO 12401 or EN 1095.

Harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2001 are not permitted.

US SAILING prescribes that harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2001 are not recommended in the U.S.

a)

Warning it is possible for a plain snaphook to disengage from a U bolt if the hook is rotated under load at right-angles to the axis of the U-bolt. For this reason the use of snaphooks with positive locking devices is strongly recommended.

5.02.2

At least 30% of the crew shall each, in addition to the above be provided with either:-

a)

a safety line (tether) not more than 1m long, or

a mid-point snaphook on a 2m safety line (tether)

5.02.3

A safety line (tether) purchased in January 2001 or later shall have a coloured flag embedded in the stitching, to indicate an overload. A line which has been overloaded shall be replaced as a matter of urgency.

5.02.4

A crew member's lifejacket and harness shall be compatible

US SAILING prescribes that the safety harness may be integrated with an inflatable personal floatation device (see OSR 5.01) and recommends that such devices be employed whenever conditions warrant, and always in rough weather, on cold water, or at night, or under conditions of reduced visibility or when sailing short-handed.

US SAILING prescribes that safety harnesses and PFD's shall be worn on Category 0 and 1 races from sundown to sun up while on deck.

5.02.5

It is strongly recommended that:-

a)

static safety lines (tethers) should be securely fastened at work stations;

A harness should be fitted with a crotch strap or thigh straps. Crotch straps or thigh straps together with related fittings and fixtures should be strong enough to lift the wearer from the water.

c)

to draw attention to wear and damage, stitching on harness and safety lines (tethers) should be of a colour contrasting strongly with the surrounding material;

d)

snaphooks should be of a type which will not self-release from a U-bolt (see OSR 5.02.1(a)) and which can be easily released under load (crew members are reminded that a personal knife may free them from a safety line (tether) in emergency);

e)

e)

a crew member before a race should adjust a harness to fit then retain that harness for the duration of the race.

5.02.6

Warning - a safety line and safety harness are not designed to tow a person in the water and it is important that the shortest safety line (tether) length possible be used with a harness to minimise or eliminate the risk of a person's torso becoming immersed in water outside the boat, especially when working on the foredeck. 1m safety lines (tethers) or the midpoint snaphook on a 2m line should be used for this purpose. The diligent use of a properly adjusted safety harness and the shortest safety line (tether) practicable is regarded as by far the most effective way of preventing man overboard incidents.

 
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phillysailor

Super Anarchist
8,868
3,659
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.
I understand the concern for safety very well, but you seem hell bent on forcing an immediate discussion based on likely flawed information to learn some life saving lessons, and have taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of the entire sailing community to bring this discussion about.

If you're genuinely that concerned, and your situation is that urgent, I'd suggest skipping the next race or two to give it some time.

Are you planning on sailing to the Farallons anytime soon ?

What specifically do you expect to gain from an analysis of this situation ?

Have you taken the safety at sea seminar, taught by pros vs soliciting comments on a forum ?

No offense, but I question the urgency of your request given this accident just happened.
Thank you SW. That's exactly the message I'm trying to get across. Unfortunately some idiots like "Ropetrick" and a few others are more interested in stirring shit.

Give the survivors a rest. They will be feeling bad enough and will forever wonder if they could have done anything better. They don't need dickheads who were not there secondguessing their actions when nobody knows what their actions were.

 
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left hook

Super Anarchist
7,473
5
It should be said that there's a very high possibility that those directly involved and affected by the tragedy will someday read this thread. Perhaps we should keep that in mind when making our points and temper the way in which we make them.

Carry on.

 
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K38BOB

Super Anarchist
4,474
2
Bay Area
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?
Its not the CG or the RC responsibility/liability. Its the skippers responsibility to know the boat and crew capability for the conditions and to decide to go out or not

 

kadyca

Super Anarchist
1,099
5
Reading this news is just terrible. I've done that race a couple of times in what sounds like similar conditions. Thank the lord that we never had problems like that, just some busted gear.

Based on the few times I crewed on that race, I can easily imagine how things could have gone south fast. I'm pretty sure we didn't use harnesses or jacklines, and I was working the mast on an Elliot 46. We did get knocked down by a wave one time, and when the boat finally came back up and I went back to the cockpit to check on things, the rest of the crew was still sprawled all over the place like a bunch of bowling pins that had just got knocked down. Once I saw that things looked OK in the cockpit, I went down below to take a whiz, but it didn't occur to me to say anything to anyone that I was going below. When I came out of the head I heard all this shouting from the cockpit about a possible MOB. Turns out that when my sister (who the skipper had kindly allowed to come along as a guest at my request) eventually was able to get up again but didn't see me up on the foredeck, she raised the alarm that I might have been washed over in the knock down. Fortunately, I came out of the cabin just in time before they started to take action, but people were seriously scared there for a minute.

If somebody had gotten washed overboard in those conditions, it would have been really hairy to try and pick them up. But that's exactly what these guys had to try and do, god bless them. That takes some real courage and the survivors should be honored for risking their lives to try and save their fellow crew. Yes, it's a very difficult calculus we sailors make when we enter events like this. Of course, just walking down the street in SF you could just as easily get killed by some hipster on a bike who couldn't be bothered to slow down for a yellow light because he was already "too committed to stop." Personally, I like my chances on the ocean.

If I were ever to do that race again, I would seriously consider that I would want to have jacklines and tethers, especially if I was working foredeck again. Likewise, I will certainly look into getting a PLB or one of those other devices mentioned in the thread.

Be safe out there, and prayers for the friends, families, and the whole sailing community.

 

NoStrings

Super Anarchist
8,088
6
Richmond, CA
SWS, perhaps he'd like a "stand down" from all racing until some kind of official failure and operational analysis is performed, reports written, recommendations made, regulations written, equipment purchased, and crews trained. You know, like NASA did after the shuttle accidents. That way we'll be racing in two or three years and we'll be no safer than we are today. Some people seem to think that infinite knowledge will guarantee safety. I'm sorry to say that isn't possible, and if you actually race "out there" enough you know it. Take whatever safety measures for your boat and crew that you deem prudent for the conditions. What more do you need to know than that? All of this speculation and conjecture is nothing more than mental masturbation.

 
403
0
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?
nope

 

dog of war

Member
400
18
bay area
I have walked away from one boat and refused to sail on another because of John.......I'm nothing more than a hack but I would never sail with that ass!!! My .02

 

PIL66 - XL2

Super Anarchist
2,773
878
Stralya
I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?
Its not the CG or the RC responsibility/liability. Its the skippers responsibility to know the boat and crew capability for the conditions and to decide to go out or not

I really like the idea of waypoint rounding marks in deep water, well away from ground structures which we all know can be tempting to cut close for that small advantage. This would have avoided LSC and Shockwave (Flinders Is. 2009) tragedy's. It's certainly worthy of discussion. Like many offshore courses worldwide, here on the East Coast of Oz, we use many rocky outcrops and Islands, many with no lights/aids, as rounding marks. Why..? we don't need to. We now have the technology, maybe it's time to use it.

 
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