Will there be a foiling beachcat class someday?

[david r]

Any opinions about the following?

Perhaps you have strong feelings against such a class?

Is it realevant to try to sail off the beach with a foiler?

Would such a class require more wind than the average sailor has access to?

Would the class be a box rule or will some builder start a factory class? or change an existing one like say, the carbon 20 nacra?

Will all that carbon and engineering cost so much more than a stock F16 that only wealthy distance racer types that want to win their local race buy one?

 

[Chapped]

My opinion... there will always be a place for high end, race boats with all the bells and whistles for the speed merchant folks who have to have the latest stuff. For recreational sailors, which is what the original beach cat lifestyle folks were all about, the need is not for a boat that costs more and is more difficult to sail. It is for a boat that is more affordable, easier to sail/launch and can be maintained with a minimum of skills and expenditures.

For now, foils are an interesting application for the small segment of the boating world where they apply. But, just like they did not exist some years ago in the mainstream, they will, once again, find their way to less popularity when some other technology makes its presence known. It's inevitable.

 

[Doug Lord]

There have already been foiling beach cats-several of them. The problem is :are they faster than their non foiling didplacement sisters? I think there is an excellent chance that a modern beach cat foiler can be successfully done with any cat that already has curved trunks. The combination curved foil+ "L" (or "J")foil pioneered and refined by TNZ's 72 is a dramatic improvement on traditional surface piercing foilers(using only one main foil at a time). In conjunction with rudder "L" foils you have a potential foiler that will work. The Flying Phantom is an example of of beach cat type that is already foiling with a single main foil used at a time. It is not a standard F18, but a modified version that really foils(so you can see under the lee foil).

Other than Sail Innovation and the Flying Phantom I know of one other cat builder that is seriously considering a foiling product. And there are undoubtedly more due to the breakthru technology filtering down from the AC.

Martin Fischer's foil systems have tremendous potential for low wetted surface foils. He is part of the Sail Innovation Team, but his foils are not used on the Phantom in the video.....

Flying Phantom: http://www.sail-innovation.com/

 

[barney]

There was a foiling Hobie Tiger a few month back. It's more interesting, because the HT is not exactly high tech. They reported boat speeds of over 32knots on their second outing.

more images here

 

[Chapped]

That's nifty, Barney.

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

 

[knobblyoldjimbo]

We had the A class circus at Mannering Park last year. Mixing it with the 14ft cats was ok most of the time however one A had its bow removed by a 14. I can't imagine what it would be like if some were foiling!

 

[Rawhide]

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

 

[Oxygen Mask]

That's nifty, Barney.

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering. I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows. So its a no-go.

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand. Doesn't fall over when you stop... It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed. The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s. Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?

 

[Doug Lord]

That's nifty, Barney.

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering. I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows. So its a no-go.

>The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand. Doesn't fall over when you stop... It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed. The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s. Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?

A cat foiler like the Phantom would just require a normal cat dolly to go along with the retractable foils . Unless you're nuts you wouldn't sail the horizontal part of the "L" foil up on the beach! Around here the cat guys keep there dollies close to the beach and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

 

[Oxygen Mask]

hmm.

Ama foils, and a foiling rudder assembly for my Tremolino.

Sounds simple enough.

hmmmmmmmm

 

[Doug Lord]

The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was banned.

A cat foiler will never be as efficient as a Moth or other well designed monofoiler but a trimaran foiler with small amas, a big rig and an oversquare platform would get close and surely whup the cat foiler if it was designed to fly the main hull using foils in 5-6 knots of wind or so.

The modern cat foiler, using low wetted surface foils like TNZ or Fischers, is likely to be faster than its non-foiling counterpart. But flying must be flying-no just kissing the surface -daylight under the lee hull or its not foiling in the public mind especially when you have Moths and TNZ/Oracle to compare with.

 

[Chapped]

...and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

And every person who ever had a beach cat and enjoyed them as a beach lifestyle sporting product now knows that you have never sailed a beach cat the way they were meant to be sailed. Yeah, right, just hop on off in 8" of water and run up the beach for the trolley... Good grief. Get out of the house once in awhile and do some real sailing.

Too freakin' much, Doug. It's no wonder that you don't ever get it when people talk to you about the real sailboat industry for the typical recreational user. What do you do when your sailing area has a consistent shore break anywhere from 1 to 3 feet? I know what cat sailors here in California do; they sail their boats right on up on the beach with the break and then slide them further up and out of reach of the surge. To go out, they launch directly off the beach right through the shore break and the chop.

How about you take a long look at what happens during the Worrel 1000, for instance (the tapes are on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=worrell+1000&oq=worrel&gs_l=youtube.1.2.0l8j0i5i10l2.1324.2659.0.7716.6.6.0.0.0.0.241.900.0j5j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.acP-yXyMw44 ) and you can instantly see the lameness in your description. "OK, boys, let's all be big girls and quietly haul our foily boats out into the water where it is deep enough for our fragile foils". Funny stuff.

For races such as the Watertribe Everglades Challenge, which has been won numerous times by a beach cat Tornado, you'd have to get a total pass on the start requirements so that your pussy foiler could be carried down into the water and not launch like the rest of the big boys.

I like The O Mask's suggestion of having a boat that can do many different things, depending on the interest of the owner and the conditions as presented. With that type of design solution, the boat is not design dependent on one mode that has a big price premium for that one feature. Leave the foils off if you want and still have a blast. Add them later when and if, it suits you.

 

[Doug Lord]

That's nifty, Barney.

Can it be driven up onto the beach without scorching the foils to pieces?

That is the thing I was wondering. I always thought the Windrider Rave or Hobie Trifoiler looked like fun, but I have no beach to wade out in, and don't see trying to climb in off the dock. Can't take it in the shallows. So its a no-go.

>The main issue in my mind is whether the cat in its current form at least is the most efficent platform for a foiler. A lot of extra weight, windage and cost to carry around for limited speed enhancement. The only advantage a cat would have over a moth type foiler is righting moment and this is questionable if you mount the foils out on the wings like the early moth foilers did before it was b

anned.

For pure performance maybe.

But to me the lure, the advantage of a foiling beachcat over say, a moth, is....it's still a beachcat! Can take friends. Can goof around with a beer in your hand. Doesn't fall over when you stop... It still has uses other than the quest for pure speed. The moth type will never be a 'mainstream' recreational craft for those very reasons.

That Tiger would be really cool if it could be easily converted back to a stock F-18.

Then you can have it all, beach cat, a cool fast fun foiler machine, or race with the other F-18s. Or establish a rating with the foils and race it that way.

Does the standard boat need beefed up or modified to add the foils?

A cat foiler like the Phantom would just require a normal cat dolly to go along with the retractable foils . Unless you're nuts you wouldn't sail the horizontal part of the "L" foil up on the beach! Around here the cat guys keep there dollies close to the beach* and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

* Cats here primarily sail off the beach at Kelley Park on the Banana River. Beach dollies are at about 10' from the waters edge.

 

[Bigfork]

I have a H16 and my local launches are typical mountain lakes. The launch is a smooth ramp--the edges covered in boulders and choss. I have to hit irons on a dime when coming in under power. Still jumping out to grap the bridles in 3'. Trade winds put the dock on the wrong side (lee)...naturally. I nail it every time. Technique doesn't change with boards (foiled or otherwise)...just the lifting time. One person holds the boat, the other goes for the truck/trailer or dolly.

I don't know what sailing off a beach is

 

[bacho]

...and the more peformance oriented guys never sail up on the beach-just jump off in 8" and get the dolly. No change from the way they do it now to the way they'd do it with foils.

And every person who ever had a beach cat and enjoyed them as a beach lifestyle sporting product now knows that you have never sailed a beach cat the way they were meant to be sailed. Yeah, right, just hop on off in 8" of water and run up the beach for the trolley... Good grief. Get out of the house once in awhile and do some real sailing.

Too freakin' much, Doug. It's no wonder that you don't ever get it when people talk to you about the real sailboat industry for the typical recreational user. What do you do when your sailing area has a consistent shore break anywhere from 1 to 3 feet? I know what cat sailors here in California do; they sail their boats right on up on the beach with the break and then slide them further up and out of reach of the surge. To go out, they launch directly off the beach right through the shore break and the chop.

How about you take a long look at what happens during the Worrel 1000, for instance (the tapes are on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=worrell+1000&oq=worrel&gs_l=youtube.1.2.0l8j0i5i10l2.1324.2659.0.7716.6.6.0.0.0.0.241.900.0j5j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.acP-yXyMw44 ) and you can instantly see the lameness in your description. "OK, boys, let's all be big girls and quietly haul our foily boats out into the water where it is deep enough for our fragile foils". Funny stuff.

For races such as the Watertribe Everglades Challenge, which has been won numerous times by a beach cat Tornado, you'd have to get a total pass on the start requirements so that your pussy foiler could be carried down into the water and not launch like the rest of the big boys.

I like The O Mask's suggestion of having a boat that can do many different things, depending on the interest of the owner and the conditions as presented. With that type of design solution, the boat is not design dependent on one mode that has a big price premium for that one feature. Leave the foils off if you want and still have a blast. Add them later when and if, it suits you.

X2, when possible I drive my i20 straight up the beach. Pretty fun stuff. We can't lose sight of what makes a beach cat a beach cat.

 

[Fireball]

I remember an interesting brass monkeys regatta in Sydney a few years ago. There were 18 footers, A class cats and a foiling moth. The race started in about 15 knots with the moth leading, the A classes second and the 18 footers trailing. The gaps weren't huge, but there was a definite speed difference.

But the breeze dropped off on the final run to the finish. The moth stopped foiling and parked and the A classes overtook the moth. Then the 18 footer, with its big rig spinnaker, overtook them all and won the race.

Top speed in optimal conditions can be very different to speed around a course in a variety of conditions. I don't think any of the boats around are anywhere near fully developed and that includes the moths.

Things are changing so quickly in sailing, but foiling cats like the foiling SL33s of ETNZ or the foiling AC45s of OR and Artemis look awesome. A smaller version could work as well. The foils could exit the side of the hull so you wouldn't damage them when launching.

 

[Oxygen Mask]

How about a stepped hull and the foils retract right behind the step?

Of course the required shape of the foils could be an issue.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the rudder(s) and foil/wand control or whathaveyou.

 

[Doug Lord]

The refined version of TNZ foils with virtulally automatic altitude control is about as simple as you can get and therein lies their brilliance.

 

[Chapped]

...and that certainly qualifies as a beach cat, doesn't it?

Hammer in hand, the poor soul looked about for that promised sea of nails, only to be without task. "Simple", said the fool, "I'll fabricate nonsense just to fill the air until my anticipated sea of nails comes into view. It's out there... somewhere."