Wings

crashtack

Member
491
360
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but why aren't more (or any) sportsboats designed with wings in mind? In lieu of (or maybe in addition to) a canting keel or foils, this seems like a fairly reasonable way of increasing righting moment, decreasing wetted surface area, and allowing racing with fewer up/more sail. The drawbacks are obviously there - stability, not great in rough wave states, docking/trailering becomes troublesome (although why not sliding/folding wings) - but they seem relatively minor overall. In addition to being quite common on dingies and multihulls, a number of 80s/90s designs had them - the ultimate/ultra 30s, kz-1, and there's been quite a few weird european one-offs that sail in garda/geneva in the recent past. So why are even small wing appendages still so fringe/practically non-existant on sportsboats?

To be clear, I'm talking about something like the following:

bandalarga1.jpg Bild.jpg

 
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IanA.

Anarchist
801
522
Amsterdam
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but why aren't more (or any) sportsboats designed with wings in mind? In lieu of (or maybe in addition to) a canting keel or foils, this seems like a fairly reasonable way of increasing righting moment, decreasing wetted surface area, and allowing racing with fewer up/more sail. The drawbacks are obviously there - stability, not great in rough wave states, docking/trailering becomes troublesome (although why not sliding/folding wings) - but they seem relatively minor overall. In addition to being quite common on dingies and multihulls, a number of 80s/90s designs had them - the ultimate/ultra 30s, kz-1, and there's been quite a few weird european one-offs that sail in garda/geneva in the recent past. So why are even small wing appendages still so fringe/practically non-existant on sportsboats?

To be clear, I'm talking about something like the following:

View attachment 490484 View attachment 490486


How many one-off sports boats are designed and built these days compared to the 80s/90s? Setting aside any design considerations, I think you just have a lot less(not zero) people design/building their own sport boats for inshore racing. (the 89er thread next door notwithstanding) 

There's supposed to be over 20 Cape 31's racing one-design in the Solent this year(which is pretty cool) but if you had the same 20+ owners building their own concept to fit a loose SB rule then you would probably see more charismatic design choices being made. 

 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
Anyone know if someone has put racks on a VX/One?  Always thought that was a good candidate when not racing OD.

Come to think of it, a VX/Evo is powered up enough to justify racks as well.

 
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neuronz

Anarchist
895
83
europe
It might have to do with hull shape development and fashion. Wings increase your righting moment while keeping a narrow, low drag waterline. However, depending on their width the boat needs to be sailed fairly upright. Hulls have become wider since the 90ies and chines have become very popular which from a pure righting moment point of view has the advantage of not only getting the crew to windward, but also bouyancy to leeward when heeled. My impression is that people have figured out how to design a wide hull with sufficiently low drag when heeled to utilize the power from the crew weight, bouyancy shift and ballast weight where with wings you would really only use the crew weight. It kind of is the brute force approach, but I can imagine that it works over a wider range of conditions. I think a narrow hull is great in light air, but for planing downwind you probably do not want to be too narrow or you will not get much dynamic lift.

 

atnan

Member
138
67
Alameda, CA
Not really. He had a VX and raced sportsboat class, then used some of the things he learnt from optimising it for SMS to incorporate into the new boat.
Hmm...I was going off this:

After Yorky spoke to Brian Bennett, the trademark holding designer of the VX One, about his plans for the REO 7.2. Bennett and his design team drew the lines for Yorky, who drew the sail plan, positioned the keel correctly and looked after the engineering for keel and keel and shroud reinforcements.
And this:

One night in May 2015 Andrew realised that he had the spars, keel and rudder so there was nothing to stop him just putting a bigger hull under them.
My impression was that they started with the lines of the VX/One to design the bigger hull, and used the same spars, keel and rudder.

 

Jethrow

Super Anarchist
Sorry Atnan, I thought you were saying he physically extended his VX by 1m.

Yes he used his knowledge of sailing the VX and designed (had designed) & built a new boat based on it.

 
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Steveromagnino

Super Anarchist
For the Shaw 650s, we do have the little wings, but kept the boat within the trailerable width, so it's 2.45m wide and the no volume wings means the boat self rights easily and are the right width to sit on; Rob Shaw did a great job to design a simple to build boat; the bigger Shaws have the detachable wings (Animal Biscuits, Custard Truck/Orange Peeler, etc) and those end up adding some complexity to the build but you can end up a lot further off the centreline. For the 650s they are about the quickest of their size downwind the wings also seemed to help a bit in keeping the boat a bit drier and flatter as well, you sail these boats flat and so the wings tended to enable those big run aways on gusts to keep the boat flatter as the planing water hit the underside of the leeward wing, at least it felt like that.

The smaller boats have tended to go with the same philosophy of easier driven rigs and the boats aren't open style big asses twin rudders, which have mostly proven not as quick.  A few also have little wings, the Viper is a bit like the Shaw but with an even smaller rig especially downwind.  The Thompsons some have wings as well but are heavier bigger rigs.  The NZ philosophy (Shaw, Viper, Thompson all Kiwi boats) tends to lean towards the easily driven hull forms, but Thompsons are a lot heavier more rocker and plane up slower, maybe a generation earlier than the later ones. 

The Phuket 8s had a solid wing arrangement, that seemed to be a bit dangerous if you flipped them as the boat was pretty stable upside down; the no volume or tube type wings maybe better.

Having sailed the Shaw with traps, that's really the better way than wings, so much more comfortable and a lot of power with no construction issues, in NZ many of the boats have both wings and traps now; only issue is variable wind needing to be a little more on top of things, but it isn't anything major.    However a lot of places you can't do that and a few people get freaked out by the wires, so I guess back to wings.

images (3).jpeg

 

PhilipNZ

Member
211
83
New Zealand
For the Shaw 650s, we do have the little wings, but kept the boat within the trailerable width, so it's 2.45m wide and the no volume wings means the boat self rights easily and are the right width to sit on; Rob Shaw did a great job to design a simple to build boat; the bigger Shaws have the detachable wings (Animal Biscuits, Custard Truck/Orange Peeler, etc) and those end up adding some complexity to the build but you can end up a lot further off the centreline. For the 650s they are about the quickest of their size downwind the wings also seemed to help a bit in keeping the boat a bit drier and flatter as well, you sail these boats flat and so the wings tended to enable those big run aways on gusts to keep the boat flatter as the planing water hit the underside of the leeward wing, at least it felt like that.
Yep, we have the same wings on the Shaw 750t to max trailer beam. They give a little more righting moment, suppress the odd splash, a little lift but never drag

shaw 5 005.jpeg

DSC02918.jpeg

134115164_10225444626041602_4242174757777291117_o.jpeg

 

stealth

New member
41
3
Singapore
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but why aren't more (or any) sportsboats designed with wings in mind? In lieu of (or maybe in addition to) a canting keel or foils, this seems like a fairly reasonable way of increasing righting moment, decreasing wetted surface area, and allowing racing with fewer up/more sail. The drawbacks are obviously there - stability, not great in rough wave states, docking/trailering becomes troublesome (although why not sliding/folding wings) - but they seem relatively minor overall. In addition to being quite common on dingies and multihulls, a number of 80s/90s designs had them - the ultimate/ultra 30s, kz-1, and there's been quite a few weird european one-offs that sail in garda/geneva in the recent past. So why are even small wing appendages still so fringe/practically non-existant on sportsboats?

To be clear, I'm talking about something like the following:

View attachment 490484 View attachment 490486
Take a look at the 89'er thread and  you will follow a great build of a cool boar with wings : 




 




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