Worrell 1000

[F18 Sailor]

the team with the C2 that fractured found their spare boat had fractured in the same place, so trailered it to the start of the next leg, I haven’t heard of this being a problem with C2’s and wondering if it was how they were trailered or handled.

How good is the lady commentating this race, she obviously knows her sailing and it’s a pity we don’t have her commentating for Sail GP. Her voice is happy and up beat but not over the top as well as knowing her stuff

Certainly strange, but C2’s have been known to split at the seams. Add in the sub-optimal rudder system and the lower volume compared with new designs and it’s the last boat I would choose for the race. 
 

My choice-an Evo with a Mk. 2 Infusion on a trailer as a spare (95% of the parts are direct swaps). Backup choice would be an eXploder Scorpion. Arguably a faster hull (its won the last 4 worlds after all), but the rudder system would be a challenge in the surf and the paint a pain to fix 10 beach landings later.

Randy and Dalton are clearly fast, but I have zero sympathy for their mast breakage. I’ve never heard of a F18 mast folding while sailing upwind. They took a huge risk moving the trapeze attachment to the spinnaker bail location and likely suffered the consequences. 

 

[madboutcats]

I wondered how they broke the mast

 

[david r]

Sailing in thru the large surf with all the broken rig on the deck would be a pain.  Or did it break above the main hounds fitting?

 

[david r]

They are reaching along at 14.4 knots and should finish soon.  Do the fans think Randy will make up the 8 hours penalty?

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Another quote from Mr Smyth: “never leave the shore.”

Randy will tell you things, if you care to listen.

 

[F18 Sailor]

They are reaching along at 14.4 knots and should finish soon.  Do the fans think Randy will make up the 8 hours penalty?

Only if Team Australia break down.

 

[F18 Sailor]

I wondered how they broke the mast

I was probably a bit too definitive in my statement. The team said they stuffed the bows into a large wave and the mast folded. This is the general failure mode on an F18; kite up, bear away into the wave in front of you, stuff it hard while the helm is easing the mainsheet, snap/fold. In this case, they were going upwind. I've personally never heard of an F18 rig folding with only 2 sails up, but it is pretty rare to be sailing upwind in 30kts+ and 10'+ seas. My point earlier was the additional compression loads on the rig from moving the trapeze location higher up the mast could have been a contributing factor. I'll talk to Dalton when the race is over and get his take on the situation.

 

[mundt]

Somebody with a large brain please explain the design of the Yellow boat that won today's leg.  The crew mentioned that they did something and then squirted away from Rudees?  They even flipped once and still pounded the fleet.  The bows look like a variation of the "seaplane" bows that have been tried before with mixed results.  Seems like the bows worked in heavier air with the kites up.  

 

[F18 Sailor]

My understanding is most of the fleet flipped at least once, so that wasn't necessarily a handicap. Watching the interview, Matthieu said they "removed the little wheels on the back of the boat"...i.e the training wheels. Just a joke.

The 901 is quick in big breeze downwind, where the Cirrus R1 and R2 were also proven performers. The basis for the design was in the SCOW bows from the various Mini's/Class 40s and IMOC 60's of late. I think they went for a full seaplane float design, with a step at the back, the theory being one hull would fully plane. Certainly the hull volume forward helps in big conditions off the breeze. The issue with the design IMO is that its essentially a 16' boat when sailing upwind. Other notes:

1) The team on the Cirrus 901 are world class sailors, capable of challenging for a podium finish at any big F18 event, and to date they have not lived up to that potential while sailing the 901 (note lack of performance upwind).

2) The Cirrus R2 was already quick in big breeze, and actually a pretty good all-around performer. I was quite surprised they went for an even higher volume hull shape than the R2 with the 901! Had they simply shrunk the R2 hull shape down a bit, I think they would have had a very solid all-around performer to compete with the Scorpion/Evolution/Akurra.

 

[MauganTornado]

but it is pretty rare to be sailing upwind in 30kts+ and 10'+ seas.

Yeah, in this race, those conditions happen.  Usually not sustained while in Florida, but you'll get hit by the squalls coming off the coast.  Once the race gets to the Carolinas, those conditions get more and more frequent.

It's why, IMO the Nacra 20 was probably the best boat for this race.  It had just enough modern performance but also the "beefiness" to put up with the conditions - and even it had problems in certain areas (rudder gudgeons and castings... rear beam separations) but those minor pain points were figured out over time and mostly resolved.

 

[Rasputin22]

If I were ever going to do the Worrell again (God forbid...) I think I would choose the SuperCat 20 again. I just wouldn't put a grossly overbuilt carbon wing mast with many untested ideas as we did the first time around. The Frenchman who designed and fabricated our mast had done his military service in the French airforce and was an airframe mechanic for those Mirage composite fighters. His composite skills were admirable but the spar was nearly 100 lbs before paint! I wanted to route out panels aft of the web and between the ribs and replace with clear Mylar just as you see on the GPSail cats of today but my co-captain thought that if carbon fiber was a good thing, more carbon fiber would only be better. The carbon rig on Randy's former Pacific 1000 Prindle 19 (Team Graphiti) was a beauty but no match for getting dragged backwards by the current into the Oregon Inlet bridge. 

    Our welded aluminum pivoting mast hound attachment failed at Lake Worth and the ground crew replaced it during the night with a simple four hole padeye and a Jesus Shackle. We got about another 25 miles up the coast before the Frenchman fell asleep at the helm and steered us into the surf!  

 

[Fat Point Jack]

Could ya do it on beefed up version of Randy's Sissors?

As a Hobie 16 sailor sailing on Lake Michigan in Gary, Indiana my only following was Multihulls Magazine, Three Cheers for Charles Chiodi, 3 months later.

You started, I dreamed.

 

[MauganTornado]

Could ya do it on beefed up version of Randy's Sissors?

As a Hobie 16 sailor sailing on Lake Michigan in Gary, Indiana my only following was Multihulls Magazine, Three Cheers for Charles Chiodi, 3 months later.

You started, I dreamed.

If you can get 5 on the line as a class... then you could try.

 

[Rasputin22]

I actually made a scale model of my Worrell inspired knockoff of Slingshot. I was working in a boatshop in Nahant 'turbo'ing a Newick 40 tri. The Gougeon brothers had recently set a world speed sailing record with their hard chine ply main hull with half length amas mounted on an aluminum ladder frame and could hide out to windward a ridiculous amount. Much like the sliding seat of an international canoe. I figured if I could make the idea work at 20' and stay together getting in and out of the surf it might do well on the long reaches on which this race is won.  I had just seen what Seaman's fold up hiking racks work and what was really neat about that innovation was the mounting to Harken slides on a traveller mounted on the rail. The aluminum rack bodies were actually those air ambulance litters that are sort of a Geodesic nature and look like this. From fully hiked out on one of these you could pull a couple of lines and the whole rack you were riding could move from the capstays to the aft beam. I wanted to couple that action to the rack of my short amas so it was pretty close to what Randy's Sizzors was. The surf of that course scared me off anyway! 

 

[Irrational 14]

My understanding is most of the fleet flipped at least once, so that wasn't necessarily a handicap. Watching the interview, Matthieu said they "removed the little wheels on the back of the boat"...i.e the training wheels. Just a joke.

The 901 is quick in big breeze downwind, where the Cirrus R1 and R2 were also proven performers. The basis for the design was in the SCOW bows from the various Mini's/Class 40s and IMOC 60's of late. I think they went for a full seaplane float design, with a step at the back, the theory being one hull would fully plane. Certainly the hull volume forward helps in big conditions off the breeze. The issue with the design IMO is that its essentially a 16' boat when sailing upwind. Other notes:

1) The team on the Cirrus 901 are world class sailors, capable of challenging for a podium finish at any big F18 event, and to date they have not lived up to that potential while sailing the 901 (note lack of performance upwind).

2) The Cirrus R2 was already quick in big breeze, and actually a pretty good all-around performer. I was quite surprised they went for an even higher volume hull shape than the R2 with the 901! Had they simply shrunk the R2 hull shape down a bit, I think they would have had a very solid all-around performer to compete with the Scorpion/Evolution/Akurra.

Overall, the French designs have always been good performers downwind especially in breeze. My Phantom was the same way, lots of volume where you needed it. Here's a pic of Matthieu and I in SF a few years back. Matt flew around headstay at the bear away but we still were able to save it and keep going. Other boats, not so much.

 

[Sidecar]

please explain the design of the Yellow boat that won today's leg. 

The basis for the design was in the SCOW bows from the various Mini's/Class 40s and IMOC 60's of late. I think they went for a full seaplane float design, with a step at the back, the theory being one hull would fully plane. Certainly the hull volume forward helps in big conditions off the breeze. The issue with the design IMO is that its essentially a 16' boat when sailing upwind.

Waterline length is king in displacement sailing, but when you can get up on a plane, it isn’t. So if the Cirrus 901 can’t plane upwind, it will be slower than more conventional hulls and would need to make up the difference downwind, where it can plane.

All hulls are capable of planing. Not many can upwind. 49’ers and 18 ft skiffs plane when hull speed reaches ~ 1.8 LWL^0.5. Most dinghy and sports boats plane somewhere between 2.0-2.5 and a slalom water ski at ~5.0. Load/planing areas and front/planing edge widths are what count. Better for planing to keep both hulls in the water, because it doubles planing area and leading edge width for the same load. If you can’t plane, you need to get the windward hull out of the water ASAP.

Narrow semi circular cat hull sections with fine bows have very little effective planing area, and virtually no leading/planing edge, so the Speed/Length ratio needed to plane is usually unobtainable under sail. You would need to tow them behind a seriously fast motor boat to find their planing speed.

Plenty of dynamic lift from wide flat sections and rocker up front helps to keep the nose up and out. The extra volume and water shedding topsides helps to get the nose out when buried and reduce tripping, with less windage (and “waveage”) up front to push the bows away. The same forward sections would also be slow in light sloppy conditions upwind.

Pay your money at make your choice!

Conditions for this leg seemed ideal for the Yellow boat.

 

[F18 Sailor]

The Cirrus 901 can’t plane upwind, nor can any F18. We get into a semi-planning mode at around 12kts of boat speed upwind, where the leeward hull is providing plenty of dynamic lift. This is partly why flatter sections from the daggerboard trunk aft as found on the Scorpion, C2, Akurra and Evo are effective. Still, to get there, it’s helpful to have the full 18’ of waterline working in your favor, and in less than 10kts of breeze it’s absolutely critical.

Hopefully all the boats have a safe and quick leg today!

 

[mundt]

Mr. Irrational, amazing pic, love that mainsail!

Mr. Sidecar, your brain is indeed very enormous, thank you!

Anybody else notice that the average age of the participants is somewhere in the AARP zone?  Very tough hombres to handle the punishment day after day. I’m guessing there might be some Ibuprofen involved.  I’d bet that in the early days the average age was mid-twenties, now it looks like 50-60+???  Great event. 

 

[Sidecar]

The Cirrus 901 can’t plane upwind, nor can any F18. We get into a semi-planning mode at around 12kts of boat speed upwind, where the leeward hull is providing plenty of dynamic lift. This is partly why flatter sections from the daggerboard trunk aft as found on the Scorpion, C2, Akurra and Evo are effective. Still, to get there, it’s helpful to have the full 18’ of waterline working in your favor, and in less than 10kts of breeze it’s absolutely critical.

Out of curiosity:

What TWS do you have for 12 knots boat speed upwind? What boat speed upwind would you have at 10 knots TWS?

 

[Rasputin22]

Mr. Irrational, amazing pic, love that mainsail!

Mr. Sidecar, your brain is indeed very enormous, thank you!

Anybody else notice that the average age of the participants is somewhere in the AARP zone?  Very tough hombres to handle the punishment day after day. I’m guessing there might be some Ibuprofen involved.  I’d bet that in the early days the average age was mid-twenties, now it looks like 50-60+???  Great event. 

I resemble that remark! I was in my mid-thirties and would if I was in this years Worrell I would be in my late 60's...

    I think this shirt says it all. But that must be Richard Spindler.