WOTUS

Left Shift

Super Anarchist
10,532
3,266
Seattle
I don't either, but I view our government sewer systems as taking a distributed solution (septic systems) and concentrating it into a problem. When overwhelmed, municipal systems around our state discharge untreated sewage into the ocean.
Yeah, right. You are definitely uncooperative aren't you, and you live in a town of less than 5,000 and full of 10,000SF lots.  Or you just don't believe your shit stinks.  

Look up the story of Lake Washington in Seattle that went from eutrophic and vile (due to being surrounded by septic systems) to clean and beautiful thanks to a cooperative effort by regional municipalities.  Spectacular success by the Commons acting in collective self-interest.  The effort was led by an enlightened banker, actually.  

Septic systems, when used as designed, slowly leach crap into the soils and then into the waterways. Into the shared waterways.  

 

Left Shift

Super Anarchist
10,532
3,266
Seattle
Rant: in addition to wanting a drainage plan, they seem to want a surveyor to show exactly where the building is located. It's right where the site plan says it is and you really can't miss it and even I don't care exactly where it is, but for some reason bureaucrats do.

They're also holding up final approval pending a termite inspection. It's a metal building on a concrete pad. The only wooden parts are built into the boats within. I'm going to feel really silly asking a professional termite inspector to look it over for bugs.
Building departments exist because of uncooperative people like you.  It is remarkable how many buildings get put "right where the site plan" says, except, yeah, they are casually poking their nose onto a neighbor's property.  Sorry about that.  They are saving people like you from themselves.  

And drainage?  in Florida?  Who cares about drainage.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Yeah, right. You are definitely uncooperative aren't you, and you live in a town of less than 5,000 and full of 10,000SF lots.  Or you just don't believe your shit stinks.  

Look up the story of Lake Washington in Seattle that went from eutrophic and vile (due to being surrounded by septic systems) to clean and beautiful thanks to a cooperative effort by regional municipalities.  Spectacular success by the Commons acting in collective self-interest.  The effort was led by an enlightened banker, actually.  

Septic systems, when used as designed, slowly leach crap into the soils and then into the waterways. Into the shared waterways.  
I don't do assigned research, sorry. If you have something you'd like to share, I'll read it.

Septic systems break down waste, which is better than this:

When overwhelmed, municipal systems around our state discharge untreated sewage into the ocean.
Septic systems themselves also break down and some in Port Charlotte do behave like the municipal systems, with leaks resulting in "no swim" orders where we try to teach kids to sail. That's a maintenance failure and it's obviously a problem. Like the raw discharges from muni systems. You can't get away from shit problems unless you stop shitting.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Building departments exist because of uncooperative people like you.  It is remarkable how many buildings get put "right where the site plan" says, except, yeah, they are casually poking their nose onto a neighbor's property.  Sorry about that.  They are saving people like you from themselves.  

And drainage?  in Florida?  Who cares about drainage.
We had to have an "as built" drainage plan approved this summer on one of our new rental houses. I didn't bitch a bit. Because it makes sense in a water-in-front neighborhood due to the effects on others.

Where I live, you must have ten acres to build. My property is larger. My Boatport is over 100' from the nearest property line, well beyond setback requirements. It doesn't take a survey showing the precise position to determine this.

Who cares? People like me who own water-in-front houses. If some Uncooperative person builds something between those properties and the creek, they're likely to have even more water in front. (Drainage swales in front and back in that area). That's a role for government for sure.

In this case, I'm both the Uncooperative person and the only person affected because we're talking about a large, rural piece of property, not a neighborhood lot.

It's generally true that someone with waterfront (or swampfront, as the case may be) property can flood others by building something and I see a role for government in preventing that behavior. It's just that in this case, they're protecting me from myself with this requirement every bit as much as they are with the termite inspection on an all metal structure built on concrete.

I feel safer already. And less cooperative.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Snook and Redfish Catch and Release Only

Governor Skeletor does get some things right and I don't see anyone on FB complaining about this at all.

The order covers areas "affected by red tide" and includes Charlotte Harbor, most of which is not actually affected at the moment. However, the effects on all the important waters surrounding the harbor means that we don't need to respond by catching all the fish that flee the affected areas and go up into the harbor.

Like all the WOTUS, it's all connected at some level.

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
66,998
11,496
Great Wet North
Building departments exist because of uncooperative people like you.  It is remarkable how many buildings get put "right where the site plan" says, except, yeah, they are casually poking their nose onto a neighbor's property.  Sorry about that.  They are saving people like you from themselves. 
I saw a story recently where they concluded that all the municipal bullshit added $200,000 to the cost of a new house in Vancouver.

It's like a mob protection racket - make up a bunch of regulations and then charge a fortune to say you have met those regs.

A friend recently did a major internal reno on a house - it cost him $40,000 in municipal bullshit to get it done - no actual services of any sort were provided, just stamping their own bullshit permission documents.

And then they go on TV to talk about how they are working on bringing down the cost of housing.

 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
9,852
3,118
Tasmania, Australia
I saw a story recently where they concluded that all the municipal bullshit added $200,000 to the cost of a new house in Vancouver.

It's like a mob protection racket - make up a bunch of regulations and then charge a fortune to say you have met those regs.

A friend recently did a major internal reno on a house - it cost him $40,000 in municipal bullshit to get it done - no actual services of any sort were provided, just stamping their own bullshit permission documents.

And then they go on TV to talk about how they are working on bringing down the cost of housing.
Not quite that bad here but it has its moments.

I built my current house without any of the benefits of their regulations. It complied with the planning rules and was built to the building code - mostly.

When I confessed (I wanted to build a big shed and they noticed the house) they fined me. It was worth every cent of that fine not to deal with the bullshit along the way. About the only thing I had to do was get a glazier's certificate that the windows complied - you can't have 3mm glass close to a door, below some minimum height etc.

They tried to give me shit about my big shed plans - claimed it wasn't structurally adequate but wouldn't tell me why as they weren't there to give advice. I paid a professional engineer to go over the plans, he made one small change and then stamped them. Problem solved - with a professional engineer's stamp the building department no longer had any say in the matter. Worth the $200 to see the look on the inspector's face when I re-submitted them.

FKT

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
66,998
11,496
Great Wet North
If you did that here (the house) they'd make you tear it down.

Wouldn't matter if it met code, the fact that you built it without their bullshit stamps would mean the bulldozer.

Really.

 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
9,852
3,118
Tasmania, Australia
If you did that here (the house) they'd make you tear it down.

Wouldn't matter if it met code, the fact that you built it without their bullshit stamps would mean the bulldozer.

Really.
*IN THEORY* they can do that here. In practice, as long as it complies with the planning rules (a dwelling is permitted, proper setbacks etc) and the building code, no court has or will enforce such an order if you appeal it.

Now if it isn't compliant with both planning & building code, you have problems.

Of course in some of the backward areas of Tasmania (which is 99% of the State) there are so many unapproved structures that, as long as you're not in their face about what you do, they won't bother you. On one of my other places, a 600 acre block in NSW, I have a letter on file saying there are no requirements for structures in the rural areas. I got that over 30 years ago and have been treasuring it ever since - just in case. I'll pass it on to the new owners when I sell the place. I'm fully aware it's not valid any more, but what the hell - it'd slow them up a bit.

FKT

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Building code anarchy?

Good news on that front. I got the piece of paper that says that my all-metal building on concrete is (this is hugely surprising) free of termites!

Still working on the drainage thing. This is the problem I created, which I knew at the time I was creating:

BoatportPuddle.jpg


Water used to flow where that puddle sits. Now it has to go around the apron of my Boatport and there's a flowing stream over where my dog is.

And yes, those are remains of the infamous plywood table in the background near the center of the pic.

 

Fat Point Jack

Super Anarchist
2,227
297
It has been a tough year for the snookies.  The Red Tide has hurt their summer home.  In spring they head from Tom's house upriver to the passes to the Gulf.  On the outgoing tide in the pass they make babies.  Then on the incoming they move to the beach to feed.  Then head back inland in the fall.

I'm at Englewood Beach most weekends in the summer.  Last Sat was my first time on the beach to walk the dog.  The other weekends the smell and respiratory effects were too uncomfortable.  In the washed up weedline was a bunch of bait and several little snook.  

My fishing license expired in July, but it is not worth it to fish right now.  So I'll wait till Oct when I hit 65 and get it for free.

Yes Red Tide is a natural occurrence,  but we and I do mean all of us past and present have exasperated the problem.  Over the years we have dumped so much stuff into the Gulf that the water chemistry has been altered.  Apparently the little algae loves it.  

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
It has been a tough year for the snookies.  The Red Tide has hurt their summer home.  In spring they head from Tom's house upriver to the passes to the Gulf.  On the outgoing tide in the pass they make babies.  Then on the incoming they move to the beach to feed.  Then head back inland in the fall.

I'm at Englewood Beach most weekends in the summer.  Last Sat was my first time on the beach to walk the dog.  The other weekends the smell and respiratory effects were too uncomfortable.  In the washed up weedline was a bunch of bait and several little snook.  

My fishing license expired in July, but it is not worth it to fish right now.  So I'll wait till Oct when I hit 65 and get it for free.

Yes Red Tide is a natural occurrence,  but we and I do mean all of us past and present have exasperated the problem.  Over the years we have dumped so much stuff into the Gulf that the water chemistry has been altered.  Apparently the little algae loves it.  
I think you mean exacerbated. But yes.

And the fact that red tide algae have caused similar and worse fish kills in the past doesn't mean everything is the same. It's not.

When my wife was a kid, there was red tide some years. Some. Not all. That's new since the 90's.

The blue green algae are a separate problem but exacerbated by the same things that have turned red tide from a "some years" thing to an annual thing.

I did hook a little tarpon in the creek last night, so the next generation isn't dead.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Building code anarchy?

Good news on that front. I got the piece of paper that says that my all-metal building on concrete is (this is hugely surprising) free of termites!

Still working on the drainage thing. This is the problem I created, which I knew at the time I was creating:



Water used to flow where that puddle sits. Now it has to go around the apron of my Boatport and there's a flowing stream over where my dog is.

And yes, those are remains of the infamous plywood table in the background near the center of the pic.
My puddle has been bureaucratically blessed!

This is when living in a small town with an active "good ol' boy" network is good. We went down and asked whether they really thought a drainage plan was needed for a small building on a large property. There was a brief conference in the back room and then the lady came out and just said, "OK, I can delete that one."

Just when you think they're starting to make sense, she added that a certificate for a final termite spray was still needed. On an all metal building that sit on concrete. WTF do they think termites eat?

In Red Tide news, my neighbor's boys have been up working with the cleanup crew in Pinellas. They're paying $20/hr and working 13 hr days.

 

Fat Point Jack

Super Anarchist
2,227
297
Saturday at Englewood Beach, no smell and the water was clearer than it has been in a while.  It came back on Sunday .  Several good sized dead Snookies on the beach.

The County Commission had a presentation from a FWC rep.  The 2 "science trained" commissioners (r) gave her a bunch of shit for not knowing exactly the cause of the Red Tide.  The "business commissioner" (r) blamed it all on the Corp of Engineers for fucking up Lake Okeechobee.  The old man and the builder were not quoted in the paper

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
Red tide blooms originate out in the Gulf and my neighbor told me that they were picking up Hogfish.

Those are some very lost Hogfish or the bloom is still originating out there. I'm guessing the latter, though fish do wind up in some strange places when running from red tide, like the red grouper my neighbor caught from his dock.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,538
1,710
Punta Gorda FL
FPL wins right to store radioactive waste under Florida's drinking water

A bit of an alarmist headline. Deep well injection of waste has been a disposal practice in Florida for decades. There are briny layers way down there and putting something in them is said to be "getting rid of it forever."

Forever is a long time.

Another way to phrase it would be:

FPL wins right to store radioactive waste IN Florida's drinking water.

The Florida Aquifer is large and complex but I don't think you can really say any one part is "forever" isolated from the rest.

For one thing, people have poked holes through the layers. And they sometimes just develop holes all by themselves. The spring that feeds my pond is one or the other of those and is considered a minor ecological disaster. One of many. See pg 167 of this report for a map of most of the known ones.

https://www.charlottecountyfl.gov/boards-committees/pz/Site Documents/5_PA121014LS_Application_Attachment2_GroundwaterBasinResource.pdf

Wells/Springs like mine allow the layers to mix. I'm told the source is part of the Hawthorn formation, well above the deep well disposal layers.

Forever separated from them? I dunno...

 

Fat Point Jack

Super Anarchist
2,227
297
The "Old Man" county commish said the other day that he has a "promise" from the seekers of the sun to build a harbor walk for giving them Bayshore Road.

The only thing less reliable that a politician's promise is a corporation's.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top